Cap on university places for medical students

Chat and items of interest about Crete and Greece.
bobscott
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Cap on university places for medical students

Postby bobscott » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:11 pm

Ok folks. The combined brains/knowledge of the forum members. Why is there a government-imposed cap on universities in the UK with regard to medical students? Why not a cap on useless MP's? (Only joking, of course). Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Kamisiana
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Re: Cap on university places for medical students

Postby Kamisiana » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:49 pm

And in what way is this relevant to living in Crete :?:

Kookla
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Re: Cap on university places for medical students

Postby Kookla » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:05 pm

Kamisiana, there is an incredible number of Greek students who study at UK universities, and others around the world.

Kamisiana
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Re: Cap on university places for medical students

Postby Kamisiana » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:16 pm

Why on earth would any one want to study in an such an abysmal place like plague island the UK :shock:

Kilkis
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Re: Cap on university places for medical students

Postby Kilkis » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:21 pm

I am not certain but I think there is a cap on all university places. The reason medicine is being highlighted is that it is one of the most oversubscribed courses. When the A level results were announced, medical schools started allocating places on the basis of the algorithmically adjusted grades and pretty much filled all their places. Now the government has backtracked and gone with the teacher predicted grades there are a lot of students who had not been allocated places but who now meet the grades in their conditional offers.

For UK students, in many subjects, the cost of providing the courses is higher than the fees the students pay. Foreign students pay a full market rate fee, which is why universities are so keen to get foreign students. Subjects like medicine, science, engineering etc are typical examples.

I think people are being a bit unfair to Gavin Williamson. In an interview he made the perfectly valid point that if they stuck with the teacher awarded grades there would be large grade inflation which could lead to students getting jobs for which they were not really qualified. Now if anybody is an expert in people getting jobs for which they are not qualified it is Gavin Williamson. Perhaps Chris Grayling helped him sort it out?

There have been a lot of specific anomalies, like the student who grew up in Spain and is totally fluent in Spanish getting downgraded from an A* to a B purely on the basis of previous results of the college he attended but there was one that really caught my eye. An English literature student got downgraded from an A to a B and lost out on a place at St Andrews and a £16,000 scholarship. Last year she wrote a fiction story, called "A Band Apart", that won an Orwell Youth Prize Senior award. The story was about a dystopian world in which an algorithm was used to alter students grades based on which social class they belonged to, i.e. students from lower social classes had their grades adjusted down. She quite literally fell into her own story.

Warwick

Kilkis
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Re: Cap on university places for medical students

Postby Kilkis » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:24 pm

Kamisiana wrote:Why on earth would any one want to study in an such an abysmal place like plague island the UK :shock:


Given the attitude of some of the people who live there I honestly can't imagine.

Warwick

bobscott
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Re: Cap on university places for medical students

Postby bobscott » Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:00 pm

I should have known. Money. Because of the high cost of training doctors, the government funds an excess per student. Hence the cap on the number of students. Put alongside the pledge by the government in 2016 that there would be 5000 additional doctor in service by 2021, and the fact that they are absolutely nowhere near that figure (with 2021 only a few months away), a cap seems ludicrous. But there you are - they prefer overseas (including Greek) students who pay the full whack.

As ever, in any political 'puzzle', look for the money!

Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Kilkis
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Re: Cap on university places for medical students

Postby Kilkis » Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:09 pm

Given that medicine is a five year course, or six years for some, increasing the number allowed to enrol now isn't going to do much to help find the 5,000 new recruits. That 5/6 years is just to get the medical degree, it doesn't get a licence to practise medicine. There is then a two year programme of on the job training. The term "junior doctor" is also somewhat misleading. Someone who has qualified to practise may be a junior doctor for another 5 to 15 years during which they are still under some level of supervision by a Consultant. Average pay for a junior doctor is around £37,000 per year which is close to the average salary of a full time worker for the population as a whole.

Warwick

Joan
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Re: Cap on university places for medical students

Postby Joan » Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:25 pm

Warwick says "I am not certain but I think there is a cap on all university places." That is certainly true in England.

Joan

jane m clayton
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Re: Cap on university places for medical students

Postby jane m clayton » Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:45 pm

The government has removed the cap for student entries for 2020 to help sort out the muddle. It doesn't help much in those universites who cannot expand capacity, whether in teaching or accommodation etc. The government is also encouraging an increase in medical students but only 33 universities in the whole of the UK offer medicine degrees out of 130 in total, with other university colleges offering lead-in courses. There's no quick fix. It's the GCSE results tomorrow in the UK, so let's just hope all this year's students, wherever they live, find a way forward that makes the future look more more promising.

Jean
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Re: Cap on university places for medical students

Postby Jean » Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:04 pm

Foreign students pay a full market rate fee

I don't think that EU students pay more than UK students. It's expensive enough anyway compared to many other EU countries where universities are essentially free.

john4d
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Re: Cap on university places for medical students

Postby john4d » Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:59 pm

Jean wrote

It's expensive enough anyway compared to many other EU countries where universities are essentially free.


There seems to be two systems of University Education

1) A system where university places are very restricted and only the very best students can attend. This allows the state to fund these places completely.

2) A system where if a student reaches a minimum entry requirement a university place will be provided. These places are in the main funded by the student.

The UK has moved from System 1 to System 2. In 1960 the UK had 22 universities and only 4% of students went to university.* Currently the UK has 133 universities and more than 40% of students attend.

I make no comment on the merits of either system.

It would be interesting to look at the 27 EU countries, and Greece in particular, for comparison. Perhaps some have found a "third way"

John

*In addition to the universities there were Technical Colleges where students attended part time whilst working and Polytechnics.

John
There's no such thing as a bad taste joke

Kilkis
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Re: Cap on university places for medical students

Postby Kilkis » Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:14 am

You are correct, Jean, that students from another EU country paid exactly the same fees as a UK student when the UK was a member of the EU. I doubt if that will continue now that the UK has left the EU. It could be part of the final deal but I suspect it won't be.

Today there are a group of 24 universities known as the Russell Group. When I went to university in 1964 they were simply called universities because they were the only universities that existed. The other 109 that exist today were polytechnics and colleges back then or didn't exist at all. To be fair some polytechnics did warrant being upgraded to universities but many of the establishments that are classed as universities today did not. People have lost sight of what a university is supposed to be. It is a place where the people who are doing the leading research today educate those that will become the leading researchers of tomorrow. The vast majority of universities outside the Russell Group do little or no research at all. They are not universities at all they are simply schools teaching at a slightly higher level.

John is right that only about 4 % of students got to go to university back then. A country needs a proportion of people educated to degree level so those that were lucky enough to get a place got their fees paid and got a means tested grant, which was £300 per year in 1964. If you start to increase the proportion of students who go you automatically end up restricting the support you give them because the country simply can't afford it. When my son went to university in 1989 the fees were still paid but there was no support grant because the proportion of students had increased but not drastically. Today you have to pay both massive fees and support yourself. What is really criminal is the interest charged on the loans used to pay the fees and provide support.

I think it was Tony Blair who introduced the aim of 50 % of students going to university. If you use IQ as a measure of intelligence it is normalised so that the average level is 100. If 50 % of university age people go to university and get a degree it means that a degree becomes a certificate that you are at least average. Only those with below average intelligence don't get a degree. Is that really what we think a degree means? Still at least the new system has provided a massive cohort of debt slaves for the financial sector so somebody has benefited. A significant number are working for minimum wage in the gig economy because the degree they have paid a fortune to obtain has no value in the real world.

Warwick

evansmr1
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Re: Cap on university places for medical students

Postby evansmr1 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:59 am

What has this article and the replies got to do with expats living in Greece?. I would guess that 99% do not have teenagers living with them that are likly to attend a UK University.

Or is it because there is nothing else interesting to discuss about Living in Crete/Greece.
Mike
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Keltz
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Re: Cap on university places for medical students

Postby Keltz » Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:07 am

For clarity, the original question "Why is there a government-imposed cap on universities in the UK" is incorrect as it applies only to England and Wales an not to the whole of the UK.

Scotland and NI have quite seperate education systems and funding models and as far as I am aware they have not impossed a cap on University attendence, medical or otherwise.

Subsiquent references on this thread to UK students and UK Universities only apply to those in England and Wales.


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