Referendum (2) SPLIT from "Too good to be true?" post

Archive of "Just now in Crete" plus Cretan Adventures.
Loretta9

Re: Referendum (2) SPLIT from "Too good to be true?" post

Postby Loretta9 » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:38 am

Nj5 > Now look, here's the "deal" ....

Quote Cameron ... "A new settlement for Britain in EU" - A promise to win "a host" of concessions to convince Britain to stay in EU". (NOT forgetting only some months earlier he was all for leaving the EU) Perhaps the pressure for TTIP was too much.

Tory Manifesto 2015 > "Insist EU migrants must live here and work for 4 years if they want to claim welfare benefits".
(1) Emergency Brake .... would allow any member country to limit access to in-work benefits for NEW EU migrants. A law to set up the Emergency Brake will need the EU Parliament/agreement of other countries to activate the brake. EU Treaties GUARANTEE free movement of people within all 28 member states.This guarantees the right to be treated equally. Including with social welfare and in-work benefits and tax advantages. A migrant must have said benefits in the country where he works. The ALERT SAFEGUARD MECHANISM > "EMERGENCY BRAKE" (semantics is an art form) intended to counteract inflow of migrants of an "exceptional magnitude" applies only to NEW migrants for up to 4 years from start of work. Benefits AFTER 4 years would increase. Does NOT apply to migrants already here.
An Emergency Brake requires EU law to be altered and is based upon a UK "remain" vote. After which must pass through the very slow process of winning over the support of the EU Council and EU Parliament. IF a law is passed the EU Commission would have to put a proposal to activate the Emergency Brake for UK. A new agreement, if approved, can NOT amend EU Treaties. So the EU Court may challenge the Emergency Brake. An EU citizen can challenge through the courts on the basis that EU Treaties set rights for equal treatment. If goes the way Cameron wants nothing could kick in until year 2020. (Deal or no Deal)???

(2) Crackdown on illegal workers and sham marriages. ....... Tory manifesto 2015.
No change at all to EU policy.."3rd country nationals, who had no prior lawful residence in a member state, who marry a union citizen are EXCLUDED from the scope of "free movement". This has NOT changed for Cameron.

(3) Red Card - national Parliaments to block unwanted EU legislation.. Tory manifesto 2015.
EU says - it is a red card which will NEVER be shown. No change for Cameron.

(4) Security ... nothing changed.

(5) Currency. That not all members should have to join the Euro.
EU objective is .. all to join EURO. But recognises not all member states use the Euro. No change for Cameron.

(6) Ever closer union .... Cameron claims/implied that the phrase .. "EVER CLOSER UNION" has political and legal supremacy. It does NOT. "Ever closer union" has never been a comment of the EU. The EU stance has always been one of respect for those countries who wish to do so or not. Camerons so-called "renegotiated deal"merely repeats an already established protocol. "Ever closer union" is a phrase and NOT a policy. The UK is therefore exonerated from a move to a federal EU. This has always been the position with the EU.

Professor Eleneana Speventa... Professor of EU law. Professor Sionaidh Douglas-Scott . Chair in Law Queen Mary UNi of London.

If the aforesaid is a "deal" then Platos Cave is a tunnel. The comment ref semantics was not stated by the Professor.

nigeljackson5
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Re: Referendum (2) SPLIT from "Too good to be true?" post

Postby nigeljackson5 » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:30 am

Nowt to say at t'moment, oni to speyk, in mi muther tung an say this
"Carnt tha bloody sleep" !! lol

bobscott
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Re: Referendum (2) SPLIT from "Too good to be true?" post

Postby bobscott » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:27 am

Istronian wrote:
Istronian wrote: Just think what would happen if taxation was the same throughout Europe? Your UK tax free allowance is greater than the average earnings in many of the current, and proposed, members. Do you think this UK current allowance will be universal throughout the zone? If it is many countries citizens will pay no tax at all so others (us) will have to pay more to sustain the revenue flow. Sorry but your tax free income will be lowered to a European average yet, somehow, we are supposed to be better off by staying in? Ian


"The controversial system, which is described in EU documents as the “harmonisation of European taxation”, was put forward by the EU Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee last week.
The group’s explanatory statement reads: “Building economic and monetary union must be achieved through a harmonisation of European taxation. Fair and effective corporate taxation must become the cornerstone of the single market.
“If we are to have a reliable single market, the Member States must come to an agreement on tax matters. A coordinated and harmonised approach to the implementation of tax systems is vital in order to guarantee the proper functioning of the single market and the success of the capital markets union.”
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/678829 ... pean-union

............and you want to sign up to this!

You can knock the Express if you like but it is about the only paper advocating out and looks for news that other ignore because it does not fit their arguments.

Ian


Rather late in the day I have discovered through another forum and links, that the harmonisation of taxes etc is only proposed for those countries in the Eurozone. As it is highly unlikely that in the case that the UK stays IN, that we would ever become part of the Eurozone, the article just adds another log to the disinformation fire. Doubtless the author understood this, but chose not to reveal it.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Loretta9

Re: Referendum (2) SPLIT from "Too good to be true?" post

Postby Loretta9 » Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:16 am

NJ2.... ha ha lol...it was a very hot night so I got up. To be sure was I not faten da haate.

Loretta9

Re: Referendum (2) SPLIT from "Too good to be true?" post

Postby Loretta9 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:17 am

I agree Brian ref correcting grammar. Plenty of people around who have perfect grammar but who know nothing and could not debate the weather.
That said, my mind was made up 2 years ago for an "out" vote. Its not as if the EU suddenly appeared on the scene. Neither do I require Cameron to fire the starting pistol on the race toward original thought.
Here is some input to aid those who have not made their mind up:

"REMAIN" > Blair - Kinnock - Mandelson - the Milibands - Obama - Clegg - Ashdown ..... I could go on but this alone would persuade me to vote "out".
All of them have been dumped and many have been disgraced. The only good thing from the aforesaid list of scumbags is their unwitting sustenance to the "OUT" camp.

Every poll, every contribution I have read on the internet clearly shows massive support for the "out" camp. My home town in Britain started a poll on the internet and out of approximately 150 replies .. 140 want "OUT". I see this repeated on many forums. Yes there is support for "remain" but a mere trickle. If my grammar offends .... get a life!!!!

Current count in an average size English town .. on facebook poll .... 29 remain. 204 OUT. 2 undecided. After just one day.

Kilkis
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Re: Referendum (2) SPLIT from "Too good to be true?" post

Postby Kilkis » Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:49 am

Official polls conducted scientifically using large samples do not reflect your ad-hoc polls, Loretta. It is around 50:50 plus or minus a few percent either way. All that has really happened throughout the debate is the percentage undecided has steadily fallen as people make their mind up.

Warwick

Loretta9

Re: Referendum (2) SPLIT from "Too good to be true?" post

Postby Loretta9 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:45 pm

Yes, Kilkis you are right. I would hazard a guess at 50;50. But, and I don't feed in info to favour my position, the many internet forums I have read the "out" camp far outweighs the "remain". It surprises me the tendency toward "out" with few "remain" fighting back to boost their position.
Could it be the "remain" can not sustain an argument in opposition to "outers". I say that in all sincerity, not with sarcasm. We need a good debate from both sides.

SatCure
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Re: Referendum (2) SPLIT from "Too good to be true?" post

Postby SatCure » Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:30 pm

Before the last Greek referendum all the popular polls were stating 51%/49% in favour of "Nai".
Iraklio university's poll indicated 65%/35% in favour of "Oxi". And we all know which was right.

Here's a similar independent poll:
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/poll/3 ... ont-know39

Loretta9

Re: Referendum (2) SPLIT from "Too good to be true?" post

Postby Loretta9 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:09 am

France has suffered major riots and protests for the past couple of weeks over attempts to enforce Labour Reforms ..... NOT on BBC news. But a few Football Fans from England confronted by a few Russian fans is all over the BBC News and Radio News. Anti-Russian propaganda is OK but true reporting on the EU controlling a major country in preparation for TTIP is buried, as they say.
Yes .. the EU is great for Europe. OUT !!!! You know it makes sense.

Mixos
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Re: Referendum (2) SPLIT from "Too good to be true?" post

Postby Mixos » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:50 pm

Nothing to do with "Living in Crete" Loretta!

Kilkis
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Re: Referendum (2) SPLIT from "Too good to be true?" post

Postby Kilkis » Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:15 pm

Any argument will do, Mixos. I'm surprised nobody has argued that Aristotle would vote out if he were still around?

Warwick

Loretta9

Re: Referendum (2) SPLIT from "Too good to be true?" post

Postby Loretta9 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:16 pm

The Labour reforms come from the EC/EU just as they are screwing Greece. This shows an attempt via news blocking of hiding the dictatorial approach and attitude of the EU. Therefore puts the EU in an underserved good light by the absence of the truth in the public domain. Such absence can influence a voter as we approach 23rd June. Thus, it has a direct link with this forum subject and Crete.

Loretta9

Re: Referendum (2) SPLIT from "Too good to be true?" post

Postby Loretta9 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:20 pm

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle.

Kilkis
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Re: Referendum (2) SPLIT from "Too good to be true?" post

Postby Kilkis » Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:22 pm

I was due to fly to France on 4 June and would be hiring a car. I watched tons of coverage of the disputes on BBC News before I left. I think you see what supports your view and blank out the rest, Loretta.

Warwick

Clio
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Re: Referendum (2) SPLIT from "Too good to be true?" post

Postby Clio » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:33 pm

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle.


Good old Ari. I also quite like his "Hints For A Would-Be Demagogue on Effective Addressing of the Forum":

In making a speech one must study three points: first, the means of producing persuasion; second, the language; third the proper arrangement of the various parts of the speech.


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