UK Referendum

Archive of "Just now in Crete" plus Cretan Adventures.
Guy M
Posts: 203
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:20 pm
Location: Kalamitsi Alexandrou

Re: UK Referendum

Postby Guy M » Sun May 15, 2016 12:47 am

Life is too short to wade through opinions on the intracies of the EU and Britain's relationship with Brussels. Here's my simple reasons for voting to stay in:

1. Free trade creates wealth

2. Investment (starting new businesses, opening branches, building factories etc) creates wealth

There'll likely be less of 1. and 2. if the UK leaves.

3. Much more importantly, I dislike waiting at immigration on arrivals, and there may well be more queues to show my passport if the vote is to leave.

paul g
Posts: 89
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:20 pm
Location: Nr. Kato Gouves

Re: UK Referendum

Postby paul g » Sun May 15, 2016 8:47 am

The breakup of Yugoslavia wasn't that peaceful.

mouche
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:43 pm

Re: UK Referendum

Postby mouche » Sun May 15, 2016 9:22 am


Kilkis
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Location: Near Chania

Re: UK Referendum

Postby Kilkis » Sun May 15, 2016 9:36 am

Looks like Godwin's law is applicable to the EU Referendum debate as well as Internet forums?

There are things in Boris' article that I would agree with:

“But fundamentally what is lacking is the eternal problem, which is that there is no underlying loyalty to the idea of Europe. There is no single authority that anybody respects or understands. That is causing this massive democratic void.”

I think that is at the heart of the EU problem. Very few people think of themselves as European first and French, German, Greek or British second. In the USA the majority think of themselves as American first and Californian, Texan etc second.

Warwick

peebee
Posts: 653
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Location: Kalyves

Re: UK Referendum

Postby peebee » Sun May 15, 2016 10:05 am

Kilkis wrote: In the USA the majority think of themselves as American first and Californian, Texan etc second.

Warwick


Maybe the Californians think of themselves as Americans primarily, but Texans - NO WAY.

sandboy2
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:47 am

Re: UK Referendum

Postby sandboy2 » Sun May 15, 2016 10:41 am

We watch from the edge of our seats at ringside as the two big heavyweights slug it out ..... no, not Dave and Boris, but our very own Kilkis and Istronian. There have been many heavy blows and grappling, but so far no knock out punch. Carolina is in the ring there with them as Referee and is watching both boys closely, but so far has not had to intervene. Original poster Cruc, Scooby, and Filippos are judges at ringside, each trying to see what the other is scoring the contest. As a fellow eastender ( of the Island that is ) guess I should be in the corner there with Istronian between rounds, fanning him with the towel, applying more Vaseline to those puffing eyebrows, and advising him urgently to "watch out for 'is big left 'and", but Kilkis is a much liked seasoned campaigner, and highly fancied to go the distance. But wait a minute ... another eastender has just leapt into the ring, the name "MrEvans" emblazoned across his towelling robe, that he removes and throws into the crowd with a flourish. He then touches gloves with a bemused Istronian - it seems they are to form a tag-team of sorts.

Regarding the serious matter of the Referendum - the result may indeed be close as there are good points to be
made on both sides, The EU may no longer be working as originally conceived, but the UK leaving might well cause others to consider following suit - unravelling a club of nations that, as others have mentioned, not insignificantly helps to unify the area in troubled times. Having not read all of the excellent debate on this Referendum posting - and although it may be small beer compared with the greater issues - I may have missed conjecture regarding those of us owning property in Crete after a possible Brexit. Things would hopefully still "rub along" in most ways pretty much as before - with goodwill and in everyone's interests - but things may not be any "easier" in the future, perhaps a metaphor for the UK generally .......

"Ding ! Ding ! Seconds out !". As you were ladies and gentlemen, take your seats as the next round is about to start, and I don't think it is going to be the last one.

Istronian
Posts: 115
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Location: I live in Hope!

Re: UK Referendum

Postby Istronian » Sun May 15, 2016 2:04 pm

sandboy2 wrote:We watch from the edge of our seats at ringside as the two big heavyweights slug it out


Are you calling me fat?

sandboy2 wrote: The EU may no longer be working as originally conceived,


The EU is working exactly as it was conceived and it is all going to plan! The gradual slicing of rights and national identity so that no one notices until it is too late. To create problems and then propose the solution of more control from Brussels. (Encourage mass immigration and then introduce an EU controlled border force as the only way to police it. The EU provoked Russia by romancing The Ukraine and now is proposing an EU army to defend its self.)

sandboy2 wrote: a club of nations that, as others have mentioned, not insignificantly helps to unify the area in troubled times.


Belgium refused to supply the UK with ammunition during the Falklands war. Was this “unity” and the action of a fellow European? The EU is fast tracking Turkey to join, and giving them vast amounts of cash, despite Turkish aggression towards Greece, an EU member. The only unity I can see is that the actions of the Troika towards Greece has united Greece in a hatred of Germany in general and Wolfgang Schäuble in particular!

Another problem with this unity is that it only comes from the introduction of qualified majority voting which binds every country. The trade sanctions on Russia have damaged Greek exports of fruit and veg to their biggest market far more than they have hurt Russia. But, what the hell, it’s only Greece so who cares?

sandboy2 wrote:- I may have missed conjecture regarding those of us owning property in Crete after a possible Brexit. Things would hopefully still "rub along" in most ways pretty much as before - with goodwill and in everyone's interests


I suspect you are right even though the remainers use it as an argument to stay in.
Lastly, the problems (challenges) facing a brexit are well documented. What has not been addressed is what is on the Eu’s agenda for the future. Remember there is an unelected Council of Ministers whose sole function is to generate rules and regulations. According to the press, their next edict will be to impose limits on the power of your electric kettle as a follow up to the limit on vacuum cleaners. This despite scientific evidence that boiling a kettle more slowly uses more power as the heat loss is greater. Who knows what other stupidities they have in mind? Perhaps they want us all micro-chipped to prevent passport and ID card forgery and to help control illegal immigration. I don’t want to give them ideas but when it happens, just remember I told you so!

Contrary to what the remainers say, it is staying in the EU that is “a leap in the dark”.

Ian

Kilkis
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Re: UK Referendum

Postby Kilkis » Sun May 15, 2016 2:57 pm

Istronian wrote:...Remember there is an unelected Council of Ministers whose sole function is to generate rules and regulations...
My red highlight.

Who do you think serves on the Council of Ministers, also known as the Council of the European Union or just the Council? Whatever subject it is discussing, it comprises the duly elected ministers from each member state who are responsible for that subject area. If they are discussing transport the UK Transport Minister attends. If they are discussing health the UK Health minister attends along with their counterparts from other EU countries. It is the highest legislative body in the EU. It, together with the European Parliament, which consists of directly elected members from each EU country, determines all EU legislation. Sometimes, but not always, this is done through qualified majority voting and sometimes it requires unanimity. It depends on the overarching treaty that the legislation is being prepared under. Primary legislation, in the form of Treaties, tends to need unanimity, or may contain derogation where unanimity cannot be achieved. Secondary legislation tends to be by qualified majority voting but not exclusively.

The European Council, consisting of the executive heads of states of each EU member country, in some cases prime ministers and in others presidents depending on the constitution of each member state, is the highest authority in the EU but does not have a direct legislative role. Rather it sets the direction for the EU and resolves, or seeks to resolve, major issues.

Thus all three political institutions, the European Parliament, the Council of Ministers and the European Council are comprised of elected representatives.

The Commission are effectively the civil service of the EU. Like other civil servants they are appointed not elected. The analogy isn't perfect. They have a more proactive role in proposing legislation than say the UK civil service. This may be in response to objectives set by the European Council or to meet objectives set in ratified treaties. As an example, in order to meet the objective of free movement of goods they might examine the differences in national legislation that affects that free movement. If differences in national legislation are shown to be impeding free movement then the Commission will propose a Directive that harmonises that particular legislation across all member states. It usually becomes a compromise between the various national laws. That Directive only becomes part of EU law once it has gone through the political approval process involving the European Parliament and/or the Council of Ministers. Once it is ratified as EU law each member state must modify its national legislation to come into line with it. Clearly part of this process involves duly elected representatives from member states. There is a democratic input. The commission cannot simply impose laws. It is true that, in the cases involving qualified majority voting, the UK opinion can be overruled. That is no different from the situation within the UK where laws might be passed that are to the detriment of one particular region because the rest of the UK wants them.

Warwick

bobscott
Posts: 2076
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Location: Kokkino Horio

Re: UK Referendum

Postby bobscott » Fri May 20, 2016 4:31 pm

Update on the Appeal process in the UK

Extracts of the Press Release. Harry Shindler’s & Jacquelyn Maclennan’s lawyers write …

“Lawyers for two British Citizens banned from voting in the EU referendum as they have lived outside the UK, but within the EU, for over 15 years will take their fight to the Supreme Court next Tuesday (24 May 2016) after the Court of Appeal upheld a High Court ruling rejecting their legal challenge to the ’15 year rule’.

Despite the Conservative 2015 manifesto and the 2015 and 2016 Queen’s Speeches including the pledge to introduce votes for life, scrapping the rule that bars British citizens who have lived abroad for more than 15 years from voting, the UK government have not proposed any legislation to reverse this rule ahead of this Summer’s crucial vote on whether the United Kingdom remains in the EU.”


Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

paul g
Posts: 89
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Location: Nr. Kato Gouves

Re: UK Referendum

Postby paul g » Fri May 20, 2016 5:16 pm

It would be funny if vote remain win and then the EU falls apart all on it's own.

KateD
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat May 14, 2016 9:41 pm

Re: UK Referendum

Postby KateD » Sat May 21, 2016 8:28 am


bobscott
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Location: Kokkino Horio

Re: UK Referendum

Postby bobscott » Sat May 21, 2016 10:00 am



Interesting Kate. I wonder if your average UK voter will get to see it?
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Kilkis
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Location: Near Chania

Re: UK Referendum

Postby Kilkis » Sat May 21, 2016 10:15 am

If I had a vote, which I don't, George Osborne's statement that leaving the EU would cause UK house prices to go down by 18 % might just convince me to vote leave. It is the most positive argument for leaving the EU that I have heard so far. I wonder why he is helping the Vote Leave campaign?

Warwick

Mixos
Posts: 363
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Location: North East Crete or S.W.England

Re: UK Referendum

Postby Mixos » Sat May 21, 2016 12:56 pm

... probably a bit of reverse psychology, Warwick. Might he think that many of those most inclined to Vote Leave are also those doing very nicely out of house price inflation and would not want that to change?

Jeffstclair
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Location: The centre of the universe

Re: UK Referendum

Postby Jeffstclair » Sat May 21, 2016 1:08 pm

I'm sorry if this has been linked to before but I only just found it and I think it's valid and is a very concise analysis of why the UK and Greece should stay in the EU even to my simple brain ...http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/a ... ave-the-eu


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