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Re: UK Referendum

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:10 am
by Cruc
Loretta9 wrote:Istronian ..... good link. David Davis is one Tory politician I do like. He has always stuck to his principles. Being ex SAS man so who is going to intimidate him?
He was in the TA for 2 years. Hardly Rambo.

Re: UK Referendum

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:14 am
by Loretta9
And your point is ???

Re: UK Referendum

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:34 pm
by Cruc
No point just a factual observation.

Re: UK Referendum

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:26 pm
by bobscott
At least he DID something, rather than just blow hot air around Westminster and the LIC forum! Bob.

Re: UK Referendum

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:27 pm
by Loretta9
He is well known for having a good scrap. Tough rugby player. But then I can only reflect on what I read about him. Not having met him.

Re: UK Referendum

Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:28 pm
by Loretta9
Slightly ambiguous Bob.

Re: UK Referendum

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:23 pm
by Cruc
This is from the Greek people.

Open Letter to the UK citizens about the June 2016 Referendum

Dear British voters,

United Kingdom joined the European Community in 1973 and it is worth to mention that the people have not been asked prior signing the membership agreement. Only two years later, in 1975 you decided in a referendum if you want to stay in the European Community, which was approved by 66 percent of the voters.

The basic idea, as it was explained to the people in Europe, was a community of European nations infriendship, solidarity, mutual benefit and democracy: Basic European Values.

Unfortunately, these inviting promises proved to be false or failed. There is nothing about freedom, solidarity or friendship in the European Union. The European Union has proven to act on behalf of the interest of banks, multi-national enterprises and groups in the shadow, as advised by professional think-tanks and lobbyists, not in favour of its people. In fact, the European Union is an economic union with a common market (without internal borders) which enables a free circulation of money, goods and people/workforce, and an ongoing process to harmonise business standards. The European Union is designed as a cartel and typically, there is a lack of democratic structures and processes: democracy becomes a disturbing factor.
Democracy, and especially direct democracy, is against any fiber of this European Union

The peoples’ vote got lost in the bureaucracy of the European Union. The European Union is driven by technocrats and an agenda which will lead to the United States of Europe shortly, the loss of the national sovereignty and identity of the European countries. The national parliaments have already delegated to a large extend their responsibilities and sovereignty to the European Institutions and consequently the national voting becomes more and more irrelevant.

The European Parliament, the only institution in the European Union the people voted for, has a more or less decorative function, it cannot legislate as we know it from national parliaments. The European Commission, which is in fact the European government, is not elected. It consists of delegates from the national governments. As Horst Seehofer – Prime Minister of Bavaria – put it: Those who are elected do not decide and those who decide are not elected.

European Union has a track history of ignoring the vote of the people. Referenda are only welcome if they approve the official policy of the European Union. If the people didn’t vote as requested, the governments used to arrange an information campaign and repeat the referendum until the outcome is convenient or the referendum result is ignored or twisted.

Denmark voted in the referendum in June 1992 against the Maastricht treaty, the re-negotiated version was approved in a second referendum in May 1993.
In 2001 Irish voters rejected the Treaty of Nice, in a second referendum 2002 it was approved.

France voted in May 2005 against the proposed European Constitution. Referenda would have also to be held in Czech, Denmark, Ireland, Poland, Portugal and the UK. As the risk of more refusals was too high, the European Union decided to modify the text and sign them as treaty by the national governments, this is what we have today as Treaty of Lisbon.

We, the Greek people, voted in July 2015 against further austerity measures required by the Troika, and our vote was ignored. Prior the referendum even highest officials of the European Union warned the Greek people not to vote NO as this would lead to a Grexit, even this is not ruled in the European treaties.

In March 2016, the European Union signed a deal with Turkey on the migration crisis. Part of the deal is that the European Union takes over a quota of migrants and distributes them by a defined key within the European countries. Hungary has announced to hold a referendum on the enforced migration, this referendum was condemned as an undemocratic measure.

Some time ago, the Dutch people voted in a referendum against the EU-Ukraine agreement. EU officials mentioned in several interviews, that obviously referenda are dangerous and a threat against the European Union. Truly, referenda are dangerous to today’s E.U., but not dangerous to the people of Europe. In the meantime, there are serious discussions to prohibit referenda within the European Union in general in order to avoid further conflicts.

Even in Switzerland, the country with the most enhanced practice of referenda, the politicians fear more than anything else the vote of the people, as it may destroy their plans in case the people do not vote as they recommend them.

The European Alliance stop-TTIP is an initiative of more than 500 organizations all over Europe and has collected more than 3.4 million signatures in order to stop TTIP and CETA. Those agreements are considered as a threat to democracy, environment, consumers and labour standards. But the European Commission ignores them…

Dear friends of democracy in the UK,

We want to express our solidarity as we know that you have to take a historical decision for your country and for your people, as we did last summer.

On 23rd June 2016 you will have to decide in a referendum on the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union. A referendum is a direct democratic element, the highest expression of the peoples will, a privilege and a rare opportunity in the European Union.

You have now the historical chance to mark your national independence day and stop the further transformation of Europe into a European dictatorship.

Democracy is the key to freedom, peace and prosperity; it protects human rights and ensures respect and tolerance.
Our thoughts are with you, we send you best wishes from Greece for a democratic voting,

Signatories t0 the Open Letter to the UK citizens

Re: UK Referendum

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:35 pm
by Tim
Can't argue with any of that. If only the 'Leave' organisation had campaigned along those lines instead of endlessly banging on about immigration (an argument they'd already won before campaigning began) they would stand a better chance tomorrow. Unfortunately, the bookies have 'Remain' as odds-on favourites. Still, Leicester won the Prem, so you never know!


Re: UK Referendum

Posted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:54 pm
by Phaedra
I believe it's too close to call, Tim.

Re: UK Referendum

Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:10 am
by mouche
Have you all started packing preparing yourselves for the move back to democracy and a brighter future? Bon voyage!

Re: UK Referendum

Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:17 am
by Cruc
Well the polling stations are open and this time tomorrow the UK may be Europe FREE. But if we are free of the European dictatorship I wonder what steps Dave and his merry followers will try to keep us in. I think that should we vote out then this could be the beginning of the end for the EU. It could even start a new vote for Scottish independence. Off you go then. :D :D :D :P :lol:

As for packing for a move back to democracy there will be no democracy if we stay. We will be like the naughty child of the Europe. The teacher the (EU) saying you had your chance to leave, you decided to stay now sit down shut-up and do as your told. You know this will happen because DAVE has no backbone. Boris would be better. :oops: :oops: :oops:

Re: UK Referendum

Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:04 am
by Kilkis
Tim wrote:Can't argue with any of that...

I would take issue with some points.

The refusal to listen to Greek demands for reduced austerity was largely down to the Eurogroup, i.e. the democratically elected finance ministers of other EU countries, not the Commission. This group wields immense power and has no legal basis. The Commission throughout was more open to compromise and made many suggestions, all of which were rejected by the likes of Schäuble and Dijsselbloem. Even the IMF pushed for debt relief.

The fact that a country demands something in a referendum does not mean that they should receive it. Greece could have completely adopted what the Greek people demanded if they wished. All they had to do was stop asking for more money from other EU members. The Greek people were misled by their own government not by the EU. Their government told them they could stop austerity but continue to be part of the EU, the Euro and receive support. That was not true. If you, as an individual or a company, are in debt to a bank, cannot service the debt and go to them for further help the bank will demand that you take steps to reduce your expenditure.

The subversion of democratic government by the interests of multinational businesses is not a function of the EU. It occurs in all countries of the world. Democracy, as practised throughout the developed world today, is a myth. Whichever government you elect it will bow to pressure from big business at the expense of citizens. The USA is the best example. Many executives were prosecuted and went to prison in the savings and loan crisis of the 80s. Clinton then rewrote all the laws that were used to prosecute those individuals so that in future those activities would no longer be illegal. Obamacare and Medicaid are a complete disaster not because they are a bad idea but because the bills implementing them were written by a lobby group employed by the pharmacy industry and are designed to maximise returns for that industry not to provide best value for the American people.

TTIP is indeed a terrible agreement. One which a Tory government, free from EU influence, would sign up to in a heartbeat.

In many cases countries voted to accept a new treaty that they had previously rejected because they were given concessions on those aspects of the treaty that they had objected to. The UK's and Denmark's opt out of the Euro is a good example. To present it as simply asking the same question again until the voters give the correct answer is a common misrepresentation.

Just a few random issues.


Re: UK Referendum

Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:42 am
by Kilkis
Tim wrote:...the bookies have 'Remain' as odds-on favourites...

Bookies' odds simply reflect how people are betting. If more people bet that remain will win then the odds on remain winning shorten and those on leave winning lengthen. They don't really say anything about how people will actually vote only about how people think other people will vote.

Phaedra wrote:I believe it's too close to call, Tim.

I agree with you, Phaedra, but I also think the result will depend on turnout. If the turnout is high then remain will probably win and if it is low then leave will probably win. No guarantees on that. I think this way for two reasons:

    1 Based on most polls the young are more likely to vote remain but the young are also less likely to vote. A high turnout probably means more young people have voted.
    2 The people who are committed one way or the other are split roughly 50:50, as you point out. My gut feeling is that the undecided are more likely to vote with the status-quo but the undecided are also more likely not to bother to vote. A high turnout probably means more of the undecided have voted.

Just my best guess.


Re: UK Referendum

Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:57 am
by Istronian
Kilkis wrote: Just a few random issues. Warwick

One of the random issues the remain side have not mentioned is how British industry and workers have been helped by loans and grants from the EU. A few examples:

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.


Re: UK Referendum

Posted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:04 pm
by scooby
mouche wrote:Have you all started packing preparing yourselves for the move back to democracy and a brighter future? Bon voyage!
Why would anyone move back? strange person..