The Will of the People

Temporary Forum - Please keep it CIVIL and ON TOPIC regarding updates/ news / concerns on British living / travelling in the EU.
Maud
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Maud » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:32 am

Darroch did the correct thing by resigning. Once again he showed the decency and honesty he has always shown in his working life by managing an extremely difficult situation well. He knew his position was now untenable and he saved the whole thing escalating even more. - It is a pity Johnson could not do the honourable thing and show public support for him.

I think it is easy to miss the point of this whole matter. Darroch was not at fault in any way. He was only doing his job. As such, he deserved the support of Johnson. Once again Johnson sat on the fence and failed to do the right thing.

How and when Darroch left his post is not important. What is important is how our possible future PM reacted when faced with such a situation, and what backing our civil servants etc can expect to get if he becomes PM!

Guy M
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Guy M » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:15 pm

Maybe you can rank what has happened like this (least important first):

1. A diplomat resigned six months before the end of his posting to the US

2. He wasn’t supported by a leading politician

3. Non-life threatening diplomatic emails were leaked

4. A foreign country (US) has influenced U.K. appointment of ambassadors

5. Other foreign countries will think THEY can influence U.K. appointment of ambassadors

6. The U.K. civil service has been politicised - they are encouraged not to be impartial or objective

7. The next prime minister is likely to be someone who is weak (he likes to plead all parties, promising contradictory things), has lied repeatedly (he has been sacked for lying twice), who cheats, makes racist and bigoted comments and sees them as a ‘joke’, has no attention to detail or willingness for the hard work that the position of prime minister needs.

8. Any likely alternative prime minister will be just as bad.

Maud
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Maud » Fri Jul 12, 2019 2:49 pm

Spot on Guy.

Jeffstclair
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Jeffstclair » Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:43 pm

As Maud said , spot on. However I think there is one more I'm not sure where it fits in the ranking ...a person or persons unknown collected copies of emails from 2017 in order to meddle or cause mischief or damage the 'special relationship' and the career of the diplomat ...

Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:49 pm

I would potentially move item 3 higher up the list. Elizabeth Oakeshott, who obtained the emails and published the story won't reveal her source but she has confirmed that they did not come from a foreign government that had hacked them. That tends to suggest that they either came from a political source, e.g. minister, aid or MP, or a civil service source. Depending who leaked the emails and their motive for doing so I think item 3 should move up a little or a lot.

Similarly depending who leaked the emails and their motive for doing so I think item 6 should move down a little or a lot.

I think item 5 has always been true irrespective of the current fiasco. All diplomats, including the ambassador, must be accredited by the receiving country. On occasion, a country will find another country’s choice to be so objectionable that accreditation will be refused. The only recourse the UK has is to refuse to accredit that country's diplomat(s). The whole system relies on good faith on both sides.

Warwick

Guy M
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Guy M » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:17 pm

I think 6 is really important, albeit a little dull. The calls for Darroch to be replaced by a ‘true believer’ Brexiteer are part of a trend, including Farage’s statement that Remainer civil servants should be moved (on the basis, presumably, that they are the reason for Britain’s failure to negotiate a better deal - but it’s obvious that this was never going to happen).

Two obvious effects:

1. The best civil servants are very skilled and do work that benefits the whole country; if they are politicised some will leave, making the civil service weaker, and we will all get worse service.

2. An impartial civil service acts as a defence against dictatorship- of either left or right.

Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:50 pm

I completely agree with what you say, Guy. The civil service must remain independent and impartial. There are certainly people who, for their own ends, want to politicise it and those people must be resisted. It is a matter of judgement, however, how far it has been politicised? As one example, it is possible that the documents were leaked by another civil servant who has some sort of beef with Darroch. If that is the case then it is not really evidence that the civil service has been politicised nor could it be viewed as an attempt to politicise it. If, however, a politician from the leave side leaked the documents in order to get Darroch out of post, because he has remain views, then it would very much be evidence of an attempt, successful in this case, to politicise the civil service. At the moment we don't know.

Reports from diplomats to London come in many forms with different levels of classification. Some have very limited circulation, e.g. Prime Minister, Foreign Secretary and Defence Secretary only. Some have wider circulation perhaps going to ten or a few tens of MPs and officials. Some go to hundreds of people. I am not sure who decides what level to allocate to each document or on what basis. Does the sender allocate a level to it? Does someone in FCO do it? I have no idea but it seems likely that the leaked documents may well have been on the hundreds circulation list. Given the language used in them perhaps whoever decided should rethink their criteria.

Warwick

bobscott
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby bobscott » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:20 pm

For what it's worth, my guess is that we are talking about a small number of actual recipients, although the content may have been briefed into other meetings (e.g. JIC). Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:49 pm

I've just watched the interviews of Hunt and Johnson by Andrew Neil. I have always thought that Johnson was a "pompous prat". The interview has made me change my mind a little. I now think it would be more appropriate to use "total" as the adjective and, in the interest of retaining alliteration, I would also change the first two letters of the noun.

Warwick

Maud
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Maud » Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:27 pm

I have just watched them as well. You forgot to insert the word ‘rude’ there Warwick. - He just interrupts and ‘talks over’ people all the time. I know lots of politicians do it, but he is unbelievable!

bobscott
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby bobscott » Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:20 pm

Maud wrote:I have just watched them as well. You forgot to insert the word ‘rude’ there Warwick. - He just interrupts and ‘talks over’ people all the time. I know lots of politicians do it, but he is unbelievable!


Unbelievable he may be, but lots of suckers out there will be taken in. Like the bloke on TV just now who said Boris appealed to him a bit more than Hunt because Johnson was 'fun'. That's all it takes then. Solve BREXIT and all the other ills of the country by having a bit of a laugh!
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:52 pm

Good thought, Maud, but "rude" would ruin my alliteration. Perhaps prefixing my original description with "pretentious" and my revised one with "tactless" would work? I gather in the most recent hustings he was heckled by someone in the audience with: "Answer the &%$!ing question".

Dead Ringers on Radio 4, Friday 18:30 UK time, do a good impersonation of him. Available on BBC Radio iPlayer without a VPN.

Warwick

Maud
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Maud » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:09 am

We could always go for an acronym Warwick! - Pompous, rude, arrogant, tactless =

Guy M
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Guy M » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:02 am

A fair proportion of the country think like this about Johnson - that he is pompous, rude and tactless - and that includes nearly everyone in Scotland. How does he think he is going to unite the country? Presumably with the same skill that he will use to reopen the Withdrawal Agreement that the EU has categorically said is closed. He is a serious shyster.

ros21m
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby ros21m » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:17 am

OK, speaking as a retired Civil Servant, albeit from a politically based family, my father at 92 years old has recently become a Parish councillor & stood around 60 years ago for Parliament. I worked for HMC&E, then HMRC, then UKBA then UKBF, before I could take it no more & was in the fortunate position that I could take early retirement. We were never political, we did our job & i have very happy memories from my time with HMC&E & to a lesser extent with HMRC. We came under th Treasury Department. We were then transterred to UKBA, under the Home Office, who had been formed because the Immigraton Department had been totaly slated & declared as NOT FIT FOR PURPOSEin 2012/13
! Guess who was the Head of UKBA then? Teresa May! Now looks like the UK are going to have Boris the clown as her successor!


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