The latest info regarding our exchange to Biometric cards .

Temporary Forum - Please keep it CIVIL and ON TOPIC regarding updates/ news / concerns on British living / travelling in the EU.
ros21m
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Location: Kerasia.

Re: The latest info regarding our exchange to Biometric cards .

Postby ros21m » Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:58 pm

Phil C,

Have you actually registered in Greece, ie hold the beige permit, or blue resident card? You MUST be in possession of one of these before the end of 2020.

Phil C
Posts: 13
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:58 pm

Re: The latest info regarding our exchange to Biometric cards .

Postby Phil C » Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:07 pm

No not yet we have the house now but had to come back to the UK then covid came so were stuck here. We have been to the police completed all the forms minus at the time the property deeds , so on our return in October we will present the deeds and hopefully get our certificates. Everything else is done.

Phil

Phil C
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Re: The latest info regarding our exchange to Biometric cards .

Postby Phil C » Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:51 am

Rick wrote:This is extremely good news for everyone!
Especially for those of us with beige certificates who probably dreaded the daunting task of jumping through hoops again to prove that we still qualify.
For ‘part timers’ we’ll retain the freedom we’ve enjoyed up to now, without having to worry about the restrictive 90 days in 180 days rule.
We MAY need to become tax resident (nobody knows for certain), but even this prospect is becoming attractive, with the proposed rate of 7% tax for retirees.



Will we not have to stay 6 months or more each year to maintain residency if we have a beige card? Otherwise could we loose it?
Phil

Kilkis
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Re: The latest info regarding our exchange to Biometric cards .

Postby Kilkis » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:46 am

Under the Withdrawal Agreement you can only remain in any EU country after the end of the transition period if you are a Permanent Resident. There is no provision in the Withdrawal Agreement for people who want to come and go. Since one reason the UK decided to leave the EU was to stop free movement why would there be?

People who have lived here permanently for over 5 years qualify already. They can leave Greece for any period of time up to 5 years without losing their right to remain.

People who live here permanently before the end of 2020, but have not yet done so for 5 years, are allowed to stay until they have completed their 5 year qualification period. They must not leave Greece for more than 6 months in any of the 5 years or they lose their right to remain. There is an exception of a period of up to 12 months once during the 5 year period for certain specific reasons, e.g. to do national service or for medical treatment.

We will only know if Greece sticks rigidly to the rules in the Withdrawal Agreement when they announce the process for the new residency document. The Greek government cannot impose stricter conditions than those in the Withdrawal Agreement, since it is an International Treaty that takes precedence over Greek law. If Greece tried to impose stricter conditions a person could go to court using the Withdrawal Agreement terms directly. In principle Greece could have less strict terms than those in the Withdrawal Agreement but I am not sure if that would get it into problems with Schengen. Many countries across the EU, including Greece, have national rules that allow third country nationals to live in their country under a whole range of different conditions, e.g. Golden Visa rules.

As always the message is wait and see.

Warwick

Rick
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Re: The latest info regarding our exchange to Biometric cards .

Postby Rick » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:00 pm

Attached is a comprehensive guide “Implementing the Withdrawal Agreement: citizens rights”
issued by http://WWW.parliment.UK

Fortunately, Greece is one of the Countries that has elected to follow a “declaratory” process to confirm our residence status under the withdrawal agreement, guaranteeing the existing status of blue & beige residence certificates WITHOUT the requirement to provide supporting documents.

The guide also notes that Greece will start issuing “new residence documents” from 01/10/20 ??

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... /84905.htm

Kilkis
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Re: The latest info regarding our exchange to Biometric cards .

Postby Kilkis » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:46 pm

The Greek web site is still saying:

    More information on the procedure to be followed for the issuance of the residence document under Article 18 (4) of the Withdrawal Agreement, will be published soon.

As far as I can tell they intend to use the new biometric id card system that will be used for other purposes and I think the contract to implement that has not been issued yet. Assuming the Greek government continues to work in its normal fashion and noting that the deadline for issuing the new documents is the end of June 2021 I would expect to receive information in July 2021.

Warwick

Tim
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Contact:

Re: The latest info regarding our exchange to Biometric cards .

Postby Tim » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:08 pm

Kilkis wrote:... Assuming the Greek government continues to work in its normal fashion and noting that the deadline for issuing the new documents is the end of June 2021 I would expect to receive information in July 2021.
Warwick


Your optimism does you credit, Warwick.

Tim

Rick
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Re: The latest info regarding our exchange to Biometric cards .

Postby Rick » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:08 am

The following extract was issued by “British in Greece” Facebook group today.
My interpretation is that it’s not simply an exchange to a biometric permit ??
===================================================================
Good morning. So the long awaited Greek legislation is out! These are the main points.
UK nationals resident in Greece before the end of transition period will be given new residence permits upon application. The period of application will be from 1/1/2021 to 30/6/2021.
The duration of the new permit will be 10 years for those who have previously secured permanent residency (blue cards) and 5 years for those ordinarily resident (beige cards). Upon renewal of the 5 year permit we can request a 10 year permanent residence permit provided we meet the conditions for permanency. Applications for renewal of the new permits can be made 2 months before the expiry of the permit.
We can apply at the police stations or aliens' offices where we get our current permits.
We can either apply independently or appoint a lawyer or our family members (spouse/parents/adult children) to act on our behalf.
The requirements to get the new permit are our current permit plus evidence that we meet the conditions for residence in Greece under the EU free movement directive (in other words the paperwork we've already provided) plus passport and four passport photos.
Those who haven't got a current permit should provide all of the above plus evidence that they were resident in Greece before end of transition.
The new permits will be the standard biometric format for third country nationals.
We will be fingerprinted
The cost will be 16E.
We will be issued a 'confirmation of application' paper which can be used until our new permits are issued.
The permit can be replaced upon application if lost.
Application for the permit can be refused, or the permit can be withdrawn, if it can be proven we were not legally resident in Greece before end of transition or if conditions for continuity of residence were not met. Also if we are deemed a security risk or if our permits were acquired through fraudulent means.
CAVEAT I am not a lawyer and this is my amateur interpretation of the legislation. For official confirmation we will have to wait for British Embassy announcements or for the AIRE team's information sheet. The legislation (in Greek) is in Files for those eager beavers among you. I am happy to be corrected on any points or for you to add points below.
I have some reservations about the legislation. Firstly, what happens if we don't meet the deadline in view of the fact that our rights are declaratory? Also, holders of permanent residence permits should not have to provide proof that they meet conditions of residence to get their new permits. Furthermore, what happens with the qualifying years on our beige permits which according to the Withdrawal Agreement should be added to our new permits? I will raise these with Aire and the British Embassy.

Kilkis
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Re: The latest info regarding our exchange to Biometric cards .

Postby Kilkis » Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:05 pm

Does the facebook page give the legislation reference number, Rick? They usually look like "No. nnnn/yyyy" or "Νόμος nnnn/yyyy" where nnnn is the law number and yyyy is the year. They may also be referenced as ΦΕΚ nn/A/dd-mm-yyyy where ΦΕΚ is a reference to the gazette where the law is published, nn is the gazette reference and dd-mm-yyyy is the date of publication. I am not sure what the A represents or if it varies.

Warwick

Rick
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Re: The latest info regarding our exchange to Biometric cards .

Postby Rick » Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:53 pm

Julia Cross has attached the legislation in a pdf document. (I’m unable to attach it to this forum). The only meaningful reference is:
Αρ.Φύλλου 4610. 19/10/20

Kilkis
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Re: The latest info regarding our exchange to Biometric cards .

Postby Kilkis » Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:22 pm

I've sent you a pm Rick.

Warwick

Kilkis
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Re: The latest info regarding our exchange to Biometric cards .

Postby Kilkis » Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:46 pm

Many thanks to Rick for sending me the pdf document referred to above. Anybody can read it if they want by clicking on the link. I've now had a chance to look at it and would make the following comments:

As far as I can tell the document is the publication of a Ministerial Decision. It is not actually a law in a formal sense more like secondary legislation, although it forms part of the Greek legal code. Instead it is a description by the government of how a particular aspect of an existing law will be implemented. In this case the existing law is the Withdrawal Agreement, which I presume has already been implemented in Greek law. The Ministerial Decision deals with how the issuing of new documents to UK citizens, which is part of the Withdrawal Agreement in Articles 15 and 16, will be implemented.

Rick asks, "Firstly, what happens if we don't meet the deadline in view of the fact that our rights are declaratory?" To the best of my knowledge the deadline for completing the issuing of new documentation is set in the Withdrawal Agreement as 30/6/2021 so that date is part of an International Treaty. The government of any member state has the right to extend the deadline, e.g. if it cannot complete the process in time, but once a member state has set a deadline citizens have no right to apply beyond it. This is independent of whatever system is used. I think if a citizen is going through the process of acquiring the documentation before the deadline but for some reason cannot complete the process by the deadline, e.g. they are asked to supply additional documentation which will take some time to acquire, then the member states are supposed to treat such cases favourably.

Rick further states, "Also, holders of permanent residence permits should not have to provide proof that they meet conditions of residence to get their new permits.". I agree and I think it is implicit in the Ministerial Decision. Article 2 of the decision defines what documents UK citizens will need to provide in order to get the new documentation. Paragraph 2 of that article deal with UK citizens who already have some form of certificate when they apply for the new documentation. It contains the following requirement:

    a) Certificate of Registration of a Citizen of a Member State EU. or Certificate of Permanent Residence of Citizen EU Member State, as appropriate
    (b) evidence that it meets the conditions defined in Articles 7, 12, 13, 14, 16 or 17 of Directive 2004/38 / EC, in conjunction with Articles 15 and 16 of the Exit Agreement

In my opinion the "or" in the list of Articles in sub-paragraph (b) applies to the whole list and means that you supply whichever is appropriate. For example Article 7 deals with the requirements to qualify for a Certificate of Registration so if you are presenting a Certificate of Registration you would need to provide proof that you satisfy the requirements of Article 7, e.g. funds, health book. Article 12 deals with the residency rights of a family member where the EU citizen has died or left the country so if you are in that position you would need to provide proof that you satisfy the requirements of Article 12 and so on. Article 16 in the Directive deals with permanent residence so anybody presenting a Certificate of Permanent Residence would need to provide the proof required in Article 16. Paragraph 1 of Article 16 states that "This right shall not be subject to
the conditions provided for in Chapter III." Chapter III is the one containing Articles 6 to 15. So you should not need to the provide proof required with a Certificate of Registration if you are submitting a Certificate of Permanent Residence. Obviously, this is Greece so nobody can predict what any individual official will demand.

Article 3 deals with the residency rights of a UK citizen who is resident in Greece before the end of 2020 but does not have a Certificate of Registration or a Certificate of Permanent Residence. This implies that such people could apply for the new documentation although they would need to provide some form of alternative proof. It is not clear what would be acceptable and presumably would be judged on a case by case basis.

Warwick


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