Flights

Temporary Forum - Please keep it CIVIL and ON TOPIC regarding updates/ news / concerns on British living / travelling in the EU.
Kilkis
Posts: 11020
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Flights

Postby Kilkis » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:53 am

It's interesting that you did it for the benefit of your children and grandchildren, Mike. As far as I can see the young people today would prefer to remain by a very large margin, far bigger than that won by leave in the referendum. Are you saying that their opinion of what is best for them doesn't count only your opinion of what is best for them?

It is common to think that the majority of ex-pats are retired people like us. In reality about 80 % work in the EU. You might think that all you have to lose is your pension increase but in the event of a no-deal Brexit they could lose their jobs. Even if the agreement reached last December is implemented they would lose the right to move between EU countries, which many of them want to do.

To imagine your pension increase is the only thing at risk is somewhat naive. You don't need to go back many years to a time when you had no right to live in Greece, only to visit for 3 months, and no right at all to own property. How can you be sure Greece won't revert to those rules under a no deal Brexit? Can you afford to bring €250,000 into Greece to secure a 5 year visa?

Warwick

BST
Posts: 479
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:29 pm

Re: Flights

Postby BST » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:58 am

[quote="evansmr1"]I am sick of reading, in this forum, that the majority of contributors seem to think that those of US who voted for exit from the corrupt EU club did not know what we were voting for. I believe that those of you (who seem to be a majority in Crete) did not understand the problems of remaining. Remain backers provided so much false information, grasping facts from the air, many of which have proved to be false, as it is also true for the exit brigade.

It appears from this forum and also from posts of well over a year ago that ALL remainers are thinking only of themselves. When I voted,via the postal system, I voted to leave in order that my Children and Grandchildren in the UK would have a better life away from the corrupt un-elected blotted EU.
I weighed up the pros and cons, using my own judgement as I am certain the majority of Leavers did.

As for remaining here after the UK leave, I cannot see any problem. The only one possibly being no annual increase in the State Pension. My Personal Pensions are safe, one in the UK and one that I have moved from the UK to a Pension Provided in the EU which pays Euros to my Greek Bank account"

That's very noble of you. Do you have private health insurance? "The problem of healthcare will be the major problem if there's no deal.

Maud
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:46 pm
Location: S.W. England/ S.W. Crete.

Re: Flights

Postby Maud » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:49 am

This is a very emotive subject!
Remainers and leavers all had different reasons for voting the way they did. Many people voting for Brexit felt like you evansmr1. They saw the EU as a corrupt and expensive ‘monster’ which the U.K. could do without. Others voted as chrissyg said because of the immigranation issue. Whatever people voted for, there was no doubt that Boris Johnson and his fellow Brexiteers deliberately used false information, (the notorious ‘bus’ for example), to sway people to vote for leave. You obviously voted for what you thought was best for the country. Many others voted because they were afraid immigrants were taking their jobs, filling the school places for their children, and overburdening doctors surgery’s and the NHS in general.

Many remainers voted to stay because they felt.... ‘better the devil we know.’ They accepted that nothing is perfect, and if you are a member of a ‘club’ there are rules/fees etc to abide by. There was scaremongering here as well, but that is politics for you!

I will admit I voted to remain, and I for one am fed up with hearing Teresa May’s mantra about “Doing what the U.K. public want.” She is certainly not doing what over 48% of the people who voted in the referendum wanted, so I strongly object when I see her daily on the tv stating this.

That is besides the ponint! The actual point is, will the U.K. be better off as part of the EU, or outside it? The truth is nobody knows. However......at the moment the signs are not good for leaving in the short term. Even some of the biggest unions are now asking for a second vote. Somebody on here mentioned Sunderland earlier. I saw people being interviewed there last week. They had voted for Brexit, but now job losses look possible in the area they have changed their minds.

As Warwick said earlier. There hasn’t been a huge shift in opinion over the last 18 months, but it is just starting to surface now. Unilever, Diageo, EasyJet, and many of the Banks amongst others, are now considering moving their operations to Mainland Europe. Jaguar Land Rover are going to a three day week, and although they say it is nothing to do with Brexit, it means uncertainty about the future for their employees.

What REALLY matters to the ‘man on the street’ is having a job to earn a living to pay the rent/mortgage, put food on the table, and to look after the family. You are fortunate evansmr1, as whatever happens with Brexit is unlikely to affect you, from what you have said. I just wish that people would realise that we are ‘jumping in to the great unknown here’ and many people have a lot to lose if it goes wrong. Sadly, they are also the people who have the least to lose!

We must be as certain as possible that we are all clear about what leaving the EU will mean for the U.K. I still believe that many (not all) people voted for the reasons I gave above...... which are unlikely to be achieved. (More money for the NHS, less immigrants etc). I can understand the call for a second vote now the ‘picture’ is becoming clearer of what the future holds. There might be no change in the voting figures, but at least then we would be going in to Brexit knowing that!

The bottom line is that almost everyone makes decions in life depending on how they are going to be personally affected.....not necessarily for the good of the country evansmrI ....like yourself. I think a clear indication of this is how almost all politicians are handling Brexit. As for the ‘man on the street’ who just wants to walk away now......do people have no idea at all about legislation? It just goes to show how uninformed many people are.

Finally, as for the younger generation, my offspring are both in their 40’s and I also have a young grandchild. I fear for their future, but more to the point, they fear for their own futures outside of the EU. They both have good jobs, as do their friends, but they, and every single one of their friends voted to remain! They can see the faults with the EU, but they still don’t want to eat chlorinated chicken from the States, or prawns pumped full of antibiotics from Japan to say the least, let alone enter a global economy without the security of being in the EU, where people like Donald Trump are dictating trade etc! Do we really want a ‘special relationship’ which such a person? His only agenda is to promote himself with his voting public, and he would cut us off as a trading partner tomorrow if it affected his voting numbers!

To bring this subject back to Living in Crete, the possible financial impact of Brexit in the U.K. will affect everyone living on this beautiful island. Some will be able to ‘weather the storm’ without too much of a problem. Others will find their lack of income from a U.K. pension, and the possible cost of healthcare will be too much for them.

Don’t underestimate what a ‘rocky ride’ ahead there is going to be for all of us. We don’t know what is going to happen with Brexit, but at least we all know where we stand whilst we are in the EU. It might not be a good enough reason to remain for some......but it is a jolly good reasons remain for many others!

Kilkis
Posts: 11020
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Flights

Postby Kilkis » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:22 pm

There is no real evidence that the EU is particularly corrupt. Contrary to media reports, in recent years EU accounts have been signed off by their auditors, I have read the auditors reports. As is normal with any auditors report they state that "the financial report is a true and accurate representation of the organisations accounts" and then they discuss discrepancies. It is pretty unusual for any organisation's accounts to be perfect.

In the case of the accounts of the EU administration, the discrepancy is no more than 2 % and that is considered normal given the size of the budget. The income is reported exactly with no error and the error is only in the expenditure. It doesn't mean that 2 % has been stolen or misappropriated. The majority of the discrepancies are simple procedural errors, e.g. amount €x was spent on activity A but form mmm was not completed correctly in accordance with EU rule nnn.

The discrepancy is higher at around 4 % in the accounts of the EU projects in the member states. That is higher than would be regarded as normal BUT the expenditure in the member states is mostly administered by the government of that member states. Again some of the 4 % can be due to administrative errors in reporting but where there is real corruption it is in the member state not in the Commission. For example Greek ministers are taking bribes to award EU contracts not EU commission staff

It can be argued that the Commission is venal in that it awards itself very good terms of employment but they have all been agreed by the European Council and that is the elected heads of state of the member countries so blame them if you don't like what EU workers are paid.

It can also be argued that it is wasteful, e.g. having the parliament sit in both Brussels and Strasbourg and having the administrative centres in Luxembourg but again that is a decision of the leaders of the member states because they want to appear to be equally important.

Whether it is expensive is a matter of opinion. The nett cost to the UK in 2017 was €7.43 billion which is about 0.33 % of GNI. A significant part of that €7.43 billion, however, consists simply of customs duties collected by the UK on goods entering the EU from third countries that the UK passes onto the EU, i.e. it is not coming out of UK economic activity. If you deduct that the UK's nett contribution to the EU budget is about 0.23 % of UK GNI. That buys completely open and free access to the markets of 27 countries comprising 500 million consumers. No tariffs, no paperwork, no customs checks, no barriers. Many would regard that as a bargain. Remember when tariffs are imposed or costs are increased by excessive administrative requirements the country doesn't pay for it nor does the company. You the consumer pays.

There are two main issues with the migration story. Firstly the EU has perfectly good laws governing migration but the UK has never implemented them in any practical way. Any failure to control migration is totally down to the the incompetence of the Home Office and the Border Force. The idea that immigrant workers have driven down wages is also largely, but not completely, a myth. Immigrants that are doing low paid jobs are doing jobs that were always low paid. If immigrants were displacing UK workers from those jobs why isn't unemployment higher? Less than 5 % unemployment has always been regarded as full employment, i.e. about 5 % of the working age population is unemployable for one reason or another, some valid some not so much. Wages have stagnated because an economic system was engineered, starting in the 1970s, to ensure that more of the rewards of production went to the owners of capital and less to the providers of labour. Migrants have been a convenient scapegoat to distract scrutiny. There are areas where immigrant workers are keeping down wages but mostly that revolves around illegal activity such as gang masters paying well below minimum wage. Again the government has failed to take any significant action against such illegal activity. The UK would have more credibility with the EU arguing for better controls of migration if it implemented some controls to implement current rules first.

Warwick

Maud
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:46 pm
Location: S.W. England/ S.W. Crete.

Re: Flights

Postby Maud » Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:45 pm

Well said Warwick. I agree completely.

I would also like to add that the 90 day rule, if it comes back in force, will be a huge problem for a number of us on this site. We are in a fortunate position that we can overcome that if necessary....but many are not. There are numerous problems facing members, depending what happens with final agreements re Brexit. Health cover is a massive issue, as already mentioned, but there is so much more we are going to have to face.......

Phild
Posts: 211
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:01 pm
Location: Way out West

Re: Flights

Postby Phild » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:50 pm

Warwick,

If you've got a bit of time on your hands, could you just pop into number 10, kick out the current incumbent and take over until, ... oh, say March 2019?

I'd be much obliged.

(Actually, I'm sure you could do what needs to be done in just a few minutes :) )
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Phil
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Kilkis
Posts: 11020
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Flights

Postby Kilkis » Thu Sep 27, 2018 6:09 pm

In the words of the old Bert Williams jazz song, Phil, recorded almost 100 years ago:

    "That's a wonderful chance for somebody - somebody else not me"

Warwick

Phild
Posts: 211
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:01 pm
Location: Way out West

Re: Flights

Postby Phild » Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:45 am

Kilkis wrote:"That's a wonderful chance for somebody - somebody else not me"


...and this is the real problem with modern politics - those with the knowledge, ability and intelligence to actually do a good job would rather stick needles in their eyes than take on the job, with all of its attached vicissitudes.

To quote Joseph de Maistre

Joseph de Maistre wrote:Every country has the government it deserves
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Phil

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Kilkis
Posts: 11020
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Flights

Postby Kilkis » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:11 am

I learned at quite an early age that not every problem has a solution. Over time I learned to recognise the ones that don't and avoid them. This one is a classic of the genre. Unfortunately in this case I can't avoid its consequences.

I also learned quite young that there are events that you can control and events that you can't. Controlling the former and dealing with the consequences of the latter is the best we can hope to achieve.

Warwick

scooby

Re: Flights

Postby scooby » Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:10 pm

Phild wrote:Warwick,

If you've got a bit of time on your hands, could you just pop into number 10, kick out the current incumbent and take over until, ... oh, say March 2019?

I'd be much obliged.

(Actually, I'm sure you could do what needs to be done in just a few minutes :) )
No good, he's a remoaner :lol:

Kilkis
Posts: 11020
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Flights

Postby Kilkis » Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:58 pm

Cheeky beggar. It is true that, if the government had had the courtesy to give me a vote, I would have voted remain, so I am a remainer, but I have never been a remoaner. Right from the campaign through the vote and since all I have ever done is try to debunk the misleading information. The EU has benefits, it has costs and it has problems. On balance my opinion, and it is only an opinion, is that the benefits outweigh the costs and the problems. I fully accept that other people will come to a different conclusion. They may well be correct, nobody knows until we are out and then we will find out.

There is only one outcome that the UK can achieve totally under its own control and that is a no-deal. Everything else would need the cooperation of the EU and it is obvious that they are not mindful to cooperate. They deal with most of the rest of the world on WTO terms without problems so they would happily deal with the UK on WTO terms. Not ideal but not a major problem for them. They have zero tariff trade deals on goods with a lot of countries so they would happily do a zero tariff deal on goods with the UK. They have a very few countries that are not formally EU members but that accept all of the costs and problems of being a member in order to gain member type access and they would be happy for the UK to become another one. You pays your money and you takes your pick. There are no other choices on the table.

Warwick

scooby

Re: Flights

Postby scooby » Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:32 pm

Interesting that EU leaders are to go over the EU commission's heads and try and strike mini deals with the UK to ease disruption to their own countries if a no deal looks likely and that is another problem with the EU. When the going gets really tough and something is going to affect a country in the EU that said country will look after itself so every man for himself scenario. Also Italy to go on a spending spree that the commission won't like.

Kilkis
Posts: 11020
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Flights

Postby Kilkis » Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:47 pm

There is a limit to what individual countries can do in terms of bilateral deals. They are all still members of the EU so are bound by EU rules. Obviously they can break the rules and see what the consequences are, if any, as many Schengen countries have done by erecting fences. As long as citizens of EU countries get through the barriers easily the EU will probably ignore it, at least for a time

Warwick

Brian
Posts: 156
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 11:21 pm

Re: Flights

Postby Brian » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:17 am

Excellent contribution from Kelkis and Maud.
Just one observation about a much bandied and lazy cliché from the Leave side, including a previous contributor on this thread. The EU is a totally Democratic organisation. All citizens of the EU have a vote on the make up of European Parliament. Potential Commissioner's are proposed by democratically elected Government's in member states and they and the commission executive are vetted by EU Parliament members.

Phild
Posts: 211
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:01 pm
Location: Way out West

Re: Flights

Postby Phild » Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:00 am

scooby wrote:]No good, he's a remoaner :lol:


That's exactly why it's a good idea! :roll:

:D
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Phil

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