Flights

Temporary Forum - Please keep it CIVIL and ON TOPIC regarding updates/ news / concerns on British living / travelling in the EU.
Kamisiana
Posts: 293
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Re: Flights

Postby Kamisiana » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:14 am

Brian how dark is it in the orifice you have self inserted your head up the EU is about as democratic a Russia Turkey or even zimbabwe the only difference is they dont inprison or kill the opposition,well they dont kill them directely anyway.
Bill Cash has a good insight into the EU workings.

Kilkis
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Re: Flights

Postby Kilkis » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:24 am

Brian wrote:...The EU is a totally Democratic organisation...


Sorry Brian, but I don't think that the EU can be described as "totally" democratic. There is a quite large democratic deficit in the way that it is structured. However, it is also not totally undemocratic either, as it is often portrayed. It is certainly nowhere near as undemocratic as Russia or Turkey. Being realistic is any country "totally" democratic. Switzerland and Iceland probably come close but I don't think you can describe the UK or Greece as "totally" democratic. A classic example is the referendum in Greece that voted overwhelmingly to reject the bailout but the government signed up to it. UK governments are elected on the basis of their manifestos but then do not carry out what they promised or introduce new things that nobody had ever had a chance to vote on. Look at the number of votes cast for each party and the number of seats each has in the UK. Is that democratic. For example, I am no supporter of UKIP but getting one seat for millions of votes is about as undemocratic as you can get.

Whatever its faults the EU exists. It serves an important purpose as a massive free trade area. It probably has the freest trade internally of any free trade area in the world. Every country that is in it benefits from that. Creating it has been a massive achievement. Being a member has consequences that are not necessarily beneficial. The real question is do the benefits outweigh the disadvantages?

Warwick

Kamisiana
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Re: Flights

Postby Kamisiana » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:45 am

Thank you Warwick
you have a much nicer and more diplomatic way to make to make my point

Philb
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Re: Flights

Postby Philb » Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:49 am

Kamisiana wrote:Thank you Warwick
you have a much nicer and more diplomatic way to make to make my point


I think Warwick pretty much contradicted your point.

Brian
Posts: 155
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 11:21 pm

Re: Flights

Postby Brian » Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:49 am

Ha ha anyone who employs Cash to bolster their argument has to be slightly innocent or naive or maybe both.
As Kilkis pointed out, the EU is as Democratic as most countries in the Western World, so please stop using that particular spurious argument.
Also, this nonsense about the EU being overly beaurocratic is also a lazy canard constantly brought up by the Leavers. Who would attempt to make that argument when they well know that trying to align 28 separate states will require a little more beaurocracy than a single separate country. Only the most innocent or malevolent would accept that the EU should have the same or less beaurocracy than a single state. So I suggest kamisiana, grow up and think for yourself.
Oh and btw I see, just now, that Toyota are at it again - scaremongering that is. Thousands of high valued jobs put at risk by leaving the single market. My final question is, how bad has it to get before common sense prevails. Surely there are many many people on the Leave side who now know that exiting the EU is a bridge too far.
Last edited by Brian on Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

scooby
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Re: Flights

Postby scooby » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:00 pm

Phild wrote:
scooby wrote:]No good, he's a remoaner :lol:


That's exactly why it's a good idea! :roll:

:D
What, to go against a democratic vote?
Men in suits will always make you pay.

scooby
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Re: Flights

Postby scooby » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:04 pm

Brian wrote:Ha ha anyone who employs Cash to bolster their argument has to be slightly innocent or naive or maybe both.
As Kilkis pointed out, the EU is as Democratic as most countries in the Western World, so please stop using that particular spurious argument.
Also, this nonsense about the EU being overly beaurocratic is also a lazy canard constantly brought up by the Leavers. Who would attempt to make that argument when they well know that trying to align 28 separate states will require a little more beaurocracy than a single separate country. Only the most innocent or malevolent would accept that the EU should have the same or less beaurocracy than a single state. So I suggest kamisiana, grow up and think for yourself.
I think Carol put this thread up as temporary and asked people to be civil to create decent debate, if you start personal insults she will shut it down.
Men in suits will always make you pay.

Brian
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Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 11:21 pm

Re: Flights

Postby Brian » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:14 pm

Scooby, if you read back you might pick up on who introduced the personal element. I think insult is a bit too strong a word though ;-) ;-)

moggieman
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Re: Flights

Postby moggieman » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:16 pm

Brian
Your comment was the best laugh of today, i really hope it was tongue in cheek. See below how much we have a vote or say in who leads us ???

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/a-v ... power-grab

And the best bit
Selmayr proclaimed that the EU civil service ‘must not be satisfied with being the machine to run our institution’, which is odd, given this is exactly what the Commission is supposed to be for.

Phild
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Location: Way out West

Re: Flights

Postby Phild » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:42 pm

scooby wrote:
Phild wrote:
scooby wrote:]No good, he's a remoaner :lol:


That's exactly why it's a good idea! :roll:

:D
What, to go against a democratic vote?


Yes, why not? All politicians do it all the time. The Οχι vote in Greece of 2015, large proportions of any manifesto promises. I was promoting the idea that Warwick would fix the problem - not provide the best solution for everyone.

Talking of democracy, it is most interesting to see how the people of the UK react to the idea of another vote on the issue. Leavers generally don't like the idea and remainers love it. I wonder why?

My approach to it is "What could be more democratic than another vote?" Particularly now that the lies and cheating of Vote Leave have been uncovered - and particularly now that the ramifications of the whole thing (which weren't talked about in any real depth before the vote) are known.

To those people who say "It's the will of the people, and we don't need another vote", I would say "Do we not have General Elections every so often? Would voting once for a political party be enough for one lifetime?"


[edited for grammar, dammit!]
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Phil
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moggieman
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Re: Flights

Postby moggieman » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:51 pm

But after a general election, and you don't like the party who has got in do you then say I want another vote.

Phild
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Re: Flights

Postby Phild » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:17 pm

moggieman wrote:But after a general election, and you don't like the party who has got in do you then say I want another vote.


Yes, you get another chance to vote for your party in a general election a few years later - did I not make that clear above?

This is why it's even more important to have another vote for the EU referendum - this possibly IS a once in a lifetime vote, while General Elections happen every few years - to deny the people of the UK a say in the real outcome of negotiations is a more undemocratic action than allowing a democratic final vote, I would say.

It would give the people a chance to answer the question "Are you sure?" before taking an important step.
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Phil

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Kilkis
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Re: Flights

Postby Kilkis » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:21 pm

Brian wrote:...As Kilkis pointed out, the EU is as Democratic as most countries in the Western World, so please stop using that particular spurious argument...


That's not what I said, Brian. I said that there was a democratic deficit in the EU and that no democracy is perfect. I did not say that the EU was as democratic as most democratic countries in the western world.

Because it is dealing with 28 member states it is forced to operate differently from a government of a single member state. For example more laws are initiated by the Commission, which is the civil service, than would be initiated by the civil service in a member state, because the Commission has an oversight of the laws in all the member states and is charged with harmonising them. Whether that makes it less democratic or not is a matter of judgement.

In some ways it is undemocratic. For example the Eurogroup has tremendous power and is completely undemocratic in that is has no legal basis. I doubt if many people in Greece would view the Eurogroup as democratic. People in the UK probably couldn't care because it has had no real affect on them. The parliament is basically democratic, in that its members are elected in free and fair votes in all the 28 countries, but sometimes operates in a non-democratic way, as do many national governments. That is a problem of the people who sit in it not the EU as an organisation.

Having democratic elections does not guarantee a democratic government. The fact that it sometimes votes through laws that are not liked in the UK does not make it undemocratic. The UK government votes through laws that are liked in some parts of the UK and not in others. The EU is doing the same thing but on a wider scale. People in the UK might be angry because the EU has imposed a law that is stricter than existed before while simultaneously the people in Germany are angry that the same law is less strict than they had before. When you harmonise laws you get a compromise. Overall the EU economy gains from the removal of barriers to trade so everybody benefits really.

Democracies operate on the rule of law. If countries are going to trade with each other they have to agree the rules under which that trade is going to take place. The only way you can completely regain sovereignty is to not trade. Then you can do exactly what you want. Up to the end of the 16th century Japan traded freely with Europe. In the late 16th century Japan began to mistrust Europe, possibly with good cause, and in 1635 the rulers issued an edict forbidding free movement of people and severely limiting trade with Europe. Japan became an isolationist country and that lasted for 200 years. Ring any bells?

Warwick

Kamisiana
Posts: 293
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:06 pm

Re: Flights

Postby Kamisiana » Sat Sep 29, 2018 2:03 pm

An article worth a read if anyone is interested?
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opin ... 19265.html

Philb
Posts: 173
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:33 pm
Location: Kalamitsi Alexandrou

Re: Flights

Postby Philb » Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:02 pm

Kamisiana wrote:An article worth a read if anyone is interested?
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opin ... 19265.html


Well it certainly wasn't worth a read. it was just the old 'Sovereignty' rubbish peddled by the right wing Tory press. What else would you expect from the Belfast Torygraph and DUP mouthpiece.

If you think that giving up our economy and all the ensuing risks associated with that is worthwhile then you must mad.

Oh sorry, I forgot. We get blue passports if they find a way to import them from France.


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