The Will of the People

Temporary Forum - Please keep it CIVIL and ON TOPIC regarding updates/ news / concerns on British living / travelling in the EU.
Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:32 pm

scooby wrote:Is a hard border in Ireland for checks on goods or people or is it both?...


The problem is mainly goods. It's easiest to think in terms of concrete examples.

Most countries want to impose regulations that goods must meet before they can be sold. It's a choice, there is no god given commandment that they must do this. For example 230 V mains electricity is dangerous. It can kill you. That means that any product that uses 230 V mains electricity has the potential to kill you if it is not designed correctly and built to a correct standard. Virtually all countries have regulations that such products must meet before they can be sold to stop consumers being killed. It is possible to make an argument that such regulations shouldn't exist. Meeting those regulations is a cost to the manufacturer so the product costs more than it would if he didn't need to meet them. If the regulations were scrapped all consumers would benefit from lower prices and only a few would probably pay the cost by being killed. Which is best? Every consumer paying a bit more and nobody dying or every consumer paying a bit less and a few people dying? Everybody makes their own judgement.

Regulations in different countries are not necessarily the same even for the same product. As another example, the EU has decided that injecting cattle with huge quantities of anti-biotics and growth hormones is not a good thing to do. They fear it might be a health hazard to consumers and so have regulations in place to control it. All cattle raised anywhere in the EU must conform to those regulations so cattle and meat products from them can move and be sold anywhere in the EU. The USA has different rules. Their government has decided injecting cattle with massive quantities of anti-biotics and growth hormones is fine and they don't have regulations restricting it, or at least not to the extent that the EU does. This allows US cattle farmers to be more productive than those in the EU and so they would have a competitive advantage if they could sell US standard meat products in the EU. But to sell their products in the EU they have to meet the EU standards so they can't use the same levels of anti-biotics and growth hormones so they don't have a competitive advantage. When the UK has left the EU and does a trade deal with the USA it will probably have to concede that beef produced to USA standards can be sold freely in the UK. If there is no customs checks between Northern Ireland and the Republic the USA could then send Beef to Belfast ship it into the Republic and from there to the rest of the EU.

Either the UK maintains the EU regulations, as a whole or just in Northern Ireland and no checks are needed or it doesn't follow EU regulations and checks are needed.

Warwick
Last edited by Kilkis on Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

scooby

Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:34 pm

Kilkis wrote:The problem is mainly goods. It's easiest to think in terms of concrete examples.

Most countries want to impose regulations that goods must meet before they can be sold. It's a choice, there is no god given commandment that they must do this. For example 230 V mains electricity is dangerous. It can kill you. That means that any product that uses 230 V mains electricity has the potential to kill you if it is not designed correctly and built to a correct standard. Virtually all countries have regulations that such products must meet before they can be sold to stop consumers being killed. It is possible to make an argument that such regulations shouldn't exist. Meeting those regulations is a cost to the manufacturer so the product costs more than it would if he didn't need to meet them. If the regulations were scrapped all consumers would benefit from lower prices and only a few would probably pay the cost by being killed. Which is best? Every consumer paying a bit more and nobody dying or every consumer paying a bit less and a few people dying? Everybody makes their own judgement.

Regulations in different countries are not necessarily the same even for the same product. As another example, the EU has decided that injecting cattle with huge quantities of anti-biotics and growth hormones is not a good thing to do. They fear it might be a health hazard to consumers and so have regulations in place to control it. All cattle raised anywhere in the EU must conform to those regulations so cattle and meat products from them can move and be sold anywhere in the EU. The USA has different rules. Their government has decided injecting cattle with massive quantities of anti-biotics and growth hormones is fine and they don't have regulations restricting it, or at least not to the extent that the EU does. This allows US cattle farmers to be more productive than those in the EU and so they would have a competitive advantage if they could sell US standard meat products in the EU. But to sell their products in the EU they have to meet the EU standards so they can't use the same levels of anti-biotics and growth hormones so they don't have a competitive advantage. When the UK has left the EU and does a trade deal with the USA it will probably have to concede that beef produced to USA standards can be sold freely in the UK. If there is no customs checks between Northern Ireland and the Republic the USA could then send Beef to Belfast ship it into the Republic and from there to the rest of the EU.

Either the UK maintains the EU regulations, as a whole or just in Northern Ireland and no checks are needed or it doesn't follow EU regulations and checks are needed.

Warwick
Doesn't quite answer the original question, so we have checks on goods, but surely people can move freely under CTA?

Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:46 pm

scooby wrote:...Doesn't quite answer the original question, so we have checks on goods, but surely people can move freely under CTA?


The EU is only concerned about its own borders. The CTA pre-dated the EU by a long way althouhg it has had its ups and downs in the intervening period. By giving the UK and the Republic of Ireland a derogation from being in Schengen the EU still protects its borders as far as people are concerned and allows the CTA to continue. Effectively the UK and the Republic of Ireland are saying that allowing our citizens to move freely is more important than imposing controls just to prevent a few other people, not our citizens, from crossing that border. The EU is saying we will allow the Republic of Ireland to be outside their borders for the purposes of citizen movements and they will implement their border control at the border between the Republic and the rest of the EU. It's a pragmatic compromise, something the EU does quite a lot despite how most people perceive them.

Warwick

scooby

Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:53 pm

Kilkis wrote:
scooby wrote:...Doesn't quite answer the original question, so we have checks on goods, but surely people can move freely under CTA?


The EU is only concerned about its own borders. The CTA pre-dated the EU by a long way althouhg it has had its ups and downs in the intervening period. By giving the UK and the Republic of Ireland a derogation from being in Schengen the EU still protects its borders as far as people are concerned and allows the CTA to continue. Effectively the UK and the Republic of Ireland are saying that allowing our citizens to move freely is more important than imposing controls just to prevent a few other people, not our citizens, from crossing that border. The EU is saying we will allow the Republic of Ireland to be outside their borders for the purposes of citizen movements and they will implement their border control at the border between the Republic and the rest of the EU. It's a pragmatic compromise, something the EU does quite a lot despite how most people perceive them.

Warwick
So if the uk said that they will not put a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland would the EU do it? I doubt it.

scooby

Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:00 pm

"Every single deal being proposed by different factions from both sides of parliament leave the UK worse off than the deal it has at present as a member".

I see the above statement bandied about very often and it's true BUT only to a certain extent and can be misleading, yes every deal proposed leaves the UK (and the EU) worse off, but only regarding the EU. The UK could be better off as a whole being able to strike it's own trade deals worldwide.

scooby

Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:03 pm

Never mind that Theresa can't get out of the EU she can't even get out of her car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wAXhHMuOq0

Kilkis
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Location: Near Chania

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:18 pm

scooby wrote:...So if the uk said that they will not put a hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland would the EU do it? I doubt it.


I think it would need to be a mutually implemented border. In the old days there used to be two borders. You passed through one control when you left one country and then through another control when you entered the next. I suspect that still applies in some areas. I think in a lot of the western world it now tends to be a single control satisfying both countries with both involved in its operation.

I am not certain of the exact rules but I think if we failed to cooperate in ensuring effective controls we would be in breach of WTO rules. The EU would be able to lodge a complaint with the WTO and, if upheld, the WTO would impose sanctions on the UK. I could be wrong on this one. I really don't have the energy to read all the WTO rules but they are a lot wider than most people think

Warwick

Kilkis
Posts: 11529
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:21 pm

scooby wrote:...yes every deal proposed leaves the UK (and the EU) worse off, but only regarding the EU. The UK could be better off as a whole being able to strike it's own trade deals worldwide.
My highlight in red.

Notice that your first verb is unconditional, i.e. that is what will happen, while your second verb is conditional, i.e. it is what might happen. I am not contradicting your statement. I agree with it but it is important to notice the nuance.

Warwick

scooby

Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:57 pm

It would be mighty interesting if the government changed tack with a tough stance now to see how the EU react, it's OK Juncker saying it's impossible to re negotiate but when it comes to the crunch he has 27 leaders of member countries to answer to, let them start squabbling I say! Try to divide them. Interesting the German team seem to be more closely involved now.

Mackie
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:08 pm
Location: Cheshire / Hersonissos

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Mackie » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:41 pm

A bit of fun to lighten the mood a bit (can’t spell) :lol:

https://youtu.be/UTPLdVlyjxc
Last edited by Mackie on Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kamisiana
Posts: 348
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:06 pm

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kamisiana » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:38 pm

A bit more fun to lighten the mood

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phbc7GiPjUc

Kilkis
Posts: 11529
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:29 pm

An additional thought on the CTA. I'm not an expert on the CTA but my understanding is that in the almost 100 years since it was first started the VISA policies of the UK and the Republic of Ireland have evolved together. While I wouldn't suggest that they are identical they are probably equivalent. By that I mean that if a citizen of any country in the world applies to enter the UK or to enter the Republic of Ireland the processes they will face, the conditions they will have to satisfy and the rules governing their stay will be broadly the same. It will be different from country to country but for any one country a citizen of that country cannot gain any real advantage by applying to the Republic of Ireland rather than the UK or vice versa. A person who would be granted entry by the UK would probably be granted entry by the Republic of Ireland. A person who would be refused entry by the UK would probably also be refused entry by the Republic of Ireland. Thus leaving the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic open for the free movement of people is not really a threat to either side.

Warwick

scooby

Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:14 pm

Kilkis wrote:An additional thought on the CTA. I'm not an expert on the CTA but my understanding is that in the almost 100 years since it was first started the VISA policies of the UK and the Republic of Ireland have evolved together. While I wouldn't suggest that they are identical they are probably equivalent. By that I mean that if a citizen of any country in the world applies to enter the UK or to enter the Republic of Ireland the processes they will face, the conditions they will have to satisfy and the rules governing their stay will be broadly the same. It will be different from country to country but for any one country a citizen of that country cannot gain any real advantage by applying to the Republic of Ireland rather than the UK or vice versa. A person who would be granted entry by the UK would probably be granted entry by the Republic of Ireland. A person who would be refused entry by the UK would probably also be refused entry by the Republic of Ireland. Thus leaving the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic open for the free movement of people is not really a threat to either side.

Warwick
We have sorted it for them then :wink:

Kilkis
Posts: 11529
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:21 pm

Sometimes I do get a glimmer of understanding why her indoors has a completely exasperated look on her face?

Warwick

scooby

Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:15 pm

The EU are trying to play hardball now but I believe if the UK government were just to say "you say it's the only deal and cannot be re negotiated even though you know it will not get approval from parliament, so let us know if you change your mind but don't leave it too late as we are not revoking article 50 or extending and we will not be having a 2nd referendum, so us, just like you will now step up in preparation to go to WTO, Adios". Sit back and I truly believe the commission will buckle under the pressure from heads of the 27 members, stand firm.


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