The Will of the People

Temporary Forum - Please keep it CIVIL and ON TOPIC regarding updates/ news / concerns on British living / travelling in the EU.
bobscott
Posts: 2637
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:36 pm
Location: Kokkino Horio

Re: The Will of the People

Postby bobscott » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:22 pm

scooby wrote:
Guy M wrote:There’s something i’m missing here: a UK citizen wants the U.K. to leave the EU, but wants to carry on living in Crete, which is part of the EU. So, there’s an objection to U.K. being governed (in part) by EU rules, but it’s ok for the individual lo be governed by EU rules. How so?
A lot of assumptions that are very, no, should I say completely inaccurate there. Never assume :wink:


Care to explain that? Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Kilkis
Posts: 11508
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:29 pm

scooby wrote:...I hear May and others saying the EU does not want a backstop, well they have been fighting bloody hard for it for the last one and a half years!


Actually they haven't. They have been fighting to maintain control of their border. They have only allowed the backstop because they are aware of the conflict a hard border could cause and the damage such conflict might inflict on both sides of the border. Remember that the country on one side of that border is remaining a member of the EU so it could inflict damage on one of their members. The backstop is an anomaly as far as they are concerned.

The ERG, and you for that matter, claim there isn't a problem. You can implement a completely transparent but effective border control immediately. Everything already exists. The withdrawal deal has the whole UK inside the customs union and the single market until 31 December 2020. Obviously, if you and the ERG are correct, you can have that transparent border control up, working and proven long before then. The backstop only gets implemented if that control is not in place and working by the end of 2020. Why are the ERG the group that is shouting loudest about the backstop? Is it just possible that they are being economical with the truth?

Warwick

scooby

Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:02 pm

Kilkis wrote:
scooby wrote:...I hear May and others saying the EU does not want a backstop, well they have been fighting bloody hard for it for the last one and a half years!


Actually they haven't. They have been fighting to maintain control of their border. They have only allowed the backstop because they are aware of the conflict a hard border could cause and the damage such conflict might inflict on both sides of the border. Remember that the country on one side of that border is remaining a member of the EU so it could inflict damage on one of their members. The backstop is an anomaly as far as they are concerned.

The ERG, and you for that matter, claim there isn't a problem. You can implement a completely transparent but effective border control immediately. Everything already exists. The withdrawal deal has the whole UK inside the customs union and the single market until 31 December 2020. Obviously, if you and the ERG are correct, you can have that transparent border control up, working and proven long before then. The backstop only gets implemented if that control is not in place and working by the end of 2020. Why are the ERG the group that is shouting loudest about the backstop? Is it just possible that they are being economical with the truth?

Warwick
If you believe the EU are not using it as a tool to bind the UK to the EU then that is your prerogative.

Solutions to the backstop may include:

https://www.leavemeansleave.eu/media/br ... sh-border/

scooby

Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:06 pm

bobscott wrote:
scooby wrote:
Guy M wrote:There’s something i’m missing here: a UK citizen wants the U.K. to leave the EU, but wants to carry on living in Crete, which is part of the EU. So, there’s an objection to U.K. being governed (in part) by EU rules, but it’s ok for the individual lo be governed by EU rules. How so?
A lot of assumptions that are very, no, should I say completely inaccurate there. Never assume :wink:


Care to explain that? Bob.
I don't know if you are referring to me or GuyM Bob?

Philb
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:33 pm
Location: Kalamitsi Alexandrou

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Philb » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:30 pm

scooby wrote:
Philb wrote:
scooby wrote:Both the remain camp and leave camp are gearing up for battle once again, Blair leading the way for a "peoples vote" (he is probably the leave camp's biggest asset :wink: ) and the leave means leave campaign on the other side. Does the remain side see what disruption another 2nd referendum could cause? I don't think they do otherwise they wouldn't be calling for it. I hear May and others saying the EU does not want a backstop, well they have been fighting bloody hard for it for the last one and a half years!


You'll be telling us next that having a vote is not democratic .
There was a democratic vote was there not? Maybe it is you who doesn't believe in democracy. Would you like to see riots or violence and disruption,because that scenario is very likely.


So democracy is one vote with perpetual outcome?

Similar to Germany in 1933? That sounds like your take on democracy.

So again, how can a more recent vote be undemocratic? Anybody who voted before can have another vote, they all count.

scooby

Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:03 pm

You are funny PhilB.

Maud
Posts: 703
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:46 pm
Location: S.W. England/ S.W. Crete.

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Maud » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:14 pm

Phil, as you know, the problem is that people who voted for Brexit are worried that another vote will go the other way. Therefore a second vote is ‘undemocratic!’It made me smile yesterday when I saw Liam Fox being interviewed and he stated that if there was a second vote he would then demand a third one. - Obviously he expects any second vote to go against his Brexiteer desires!!! (Sometimes we express our fears without meaning to!).

As you have clearly stated, there is nothing undemocratic about giving everyone another vote. People voted for Brexit before we all knew what the implications to our lives and economy would be. The public can still vote for Brexit if they wish, so what is undemocratic about that?

The referendum was exactly that. - A vote to find out if the British public wanted to be part of the EU any longer. Unfortunately nobody told the public that we would spend two and a half years with our government bickering over how to achieve it.....or that along with advantages, there would be a raft of disadvantages.

Now we know both, (advantages AND disadvantages), the U.K. public should be given the opportunity to make a rational decision. People that voted for Brexit last time round, and still think it is right for the U.K. have every right to vote that way again. Why should they object to a free vote where we all have a final say on what we now know?

Ask Liam Fox!!!

Philb
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:33 pm
Location: Kalamitsi Alexandrou

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Philb » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:27 pm

Maud, I agree with almost every word, except, 'advantages' of Brexit. Nobody has given me any evidence or even hope that there is a single one.

Don't get me started on sovereignty, taking back control or will of the people.

scooby

Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:18 pm

It is certainly not democratic to have another vote, BUT, if there was one it might be interesting because every debate I have seen before and after the referendum, the leave side came out on top.

Philb
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:33 pm
Location: Kalamitsi Alexandrou

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Philb » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:29 pm

scooby wrote:It is certainly not democratic to have another vote, BUT, if there was one it might be interesting because every debate I have seen before and after the referendum, the leave side came out on top.


Just explain why a more recent vote cannot be democratic!!!

Just repeating that it is not is futile and boring.

Mackie
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:08 pm
Location: Cheshire / Hersonissos

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Mackie » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:01 pm

I along with many people I know who previously accepted the result of the referendum now supporting a 2nd vote because of the clear lack of capability of elected politicians to deliver on the will of the people (52% of them) while protecting our country!!

The choice is no longer just leave or remain. It’s far more complicated and have a much greater impact on the UK than previously thought. Many organisations up and down the country are seriously preparing for no deal.

I would rather have a 2nd vote (3way) than crashing out without a deal at last minute without real preparation. The Government is the one that let people down on both sides.

Sad to admit but .....

Keltz
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:53 am

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Keltz » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:06 pm

Two separate points. If England/Wales left the UK then Westminster would no longer have a role outside those two countries. Trade with Scotland/NI would be under EU rules and border would be enforced as necessary as with all independent countries not in the EU/EEA. No other country has a problem with this.

A second vote is the most democratic thing we could do and be irresponsible for our government not to point out the significant risks now known and put it to a vote.

Kilkis
Posts: 11508
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:20 pm

I must confess to feeling rather like the farmer, leaning on a gate, who is asked by a tourist for directions to a certain town. After a long think he replies, "If I were you I wouldn't start from here". As far as I can see, from where we are now there is no good outcome. I am sure there must be a least worst outcome but I have no idea what it is and certainly can see no route that leads to it.

You are a leave supporter, Scooby, so obviously the leave side won every debate that you have seen. If a Liverpool player falls down it was clearly a fowl and you should get a penalty. If a Manchester Untied player falls down it was obviously a dive and he should be given a yellow card for simulation. Personally I haven't seen anybody win any debate. Each antagonist presents their own narrative that is full of flaws but supports their position. People simply buy into the narrative that agrees with their own opinion and that antagonist has obviously won.

Warwick

scooby

Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:34 pm

Kilkis wrote:I must confess to feeling rather like the farmer, leaning on a gate, who is asked by a tourist for directions to a certain town. After a long think he replies, "If I were you I wouldn't start from here". As far as I can see, from where we are now there is no good outcome. I am sure there must be a least worst outcome but I have no idea what it is and certainly can see no route that leads to it.

You are a leave supporter, Scooby, so obviously the leave side won every debate that you have seen. If a Liverpool player falls down it was clearly a fowl and you should get a penalty. If a Manchester Untied player falls down it was obviously a dive and he should be given a yellow card for simulation. Personally I haven't seen anybody win any debate. Each antagonist presents their own narrative that is full of flaws but supports their position. People simply buy into the narrative that agrees with their own opinion and that antagonist has obviously won.

Warwick
If I watch a debate on anything I usually agree with one or the other, what's the point of anyone debating if no one has an opinion. I gave a link to a good debate but no one commented on it, I wonder why.

Jeffstclair
Posts: 1376
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:00 pm
Location: The centre of the universe

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Jeffstclair » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:13 pm

None of it makes any sense at all ....no one wins in any Brexit debate ...we all lose .


Return to “Brexit and Living in Greece”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests