The Will of the People

Temporary Forum - Please keep it CIVIL and ON TOPIC regarding updates/ news / concerns on British living / travelling in the EU.
scooby
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:57 am

Kamisiana wrote:
Guy M wrote:
Kamisiana wrote:Now I am a fully paid up member of the Brexit party the first time I have ever joined any political party in my life I thought their MEP candidate Annunziata Rees-Mogg sounded good she will cause some fun if elected bring on the revolution :D


Here’s some background on Annunziata for you.

https://twitter.com/shera_marley/status ... 94433?s=21


Nothing wrong with Annunziata I would Vote for Attila the Hun as long as he was Eurosceptic and willing to knock the EU elite rulers off their high horse.
Don’t worry, as soon as remainers see any threat to their status quo they have to start dissecting candidates, happens all the time.
Get Brexit done.

Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:11 am

Guy M wrote:Maybe it is a matter of which elite you want to rule you - the European one or the British one. They are both elected, after all.


...,i.e in both cases you get to choose which of a couple of groups you wish to control you. You have no other say and both groups will control you in the same way, give or take some very minor differences. Smoke and mirrors. Works every time. Everybody puts all their efforts into debating the groups and none into debating the control.

Warwick

Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:09 pm

There is an interesting sentence in an interview with Stefanos Manos, a 79-year-old pro-business politician, who served as finance minister from 1992 to 1993 in Constantinos Mitsotakis’ New Democracy government. His comment was made in connection to the deal reached between Greece and FYROM over the name dispute but it has a resonance in the Brexit debate in the UK:

    Whatever issue arises, everyone wants to participate in a dialogue, but their only objective is to stand in the way of solutions.

When I was working I used to classify people into one of three categories:

    1 Those who, when faced with a problem, put all their efforts into finding a solution to the problem.
    2 Those who, when faced with a problem, put all their efforts into finding reasons why the problem cannot be solved.
    3 Those who caused the problem.

I think Manos' comment is another way of describing group 2. In the Brexit debate in Parliament I see plenty of evidence of group 3 in the ERG. I see enormous evidence of group 2 across the whole of Parliament but precious little sign of group 1.

Warwick

Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:52 pm

An interesting BBC News article on an OECD report on the transfer of wealth from the middle classes to the super rich in developed countries. It is this transfer of wealth that is making people feel worse off, because they are, and has caused a lot of the dissatisfaction that led to the referendum result. The print media has been very successful in attributing this deterioration in living standards to membership of the EU and, in particular, to immigration when, as I have been stressing on here for a long time, it is a much wider problem. When we have left the EU this underlying problem will still exist and will continue to cause deterioration in the living standard of the middle class unless something is done to change the root causes. Some specific figures from the article:

    1 Across OECD countries, which include most of the big economies in Western Europe and North America, the 10% of highest earners have increased their income by a third more than middle earners
    2 In the UK, more than a third of middle-income households "report having difficulty making ends meet", says the OECD
    3 In the United States over the past three decades, the top 1% of earners have increased their slice of total annual income from 11% to 20%

    "Middle incomes are barely higher today than they were 10 years ago," says the analysis.

My only argument with the article is that it has been going on for a lot longer than 10 years, more like 50. It is good to see main stream commentary starting to catch up with what economists, who don't follow "conventional wisdom", have been saying for a very long time. Not strictly Brexit but very relevant to it.

Warwick

PS If the number of posts in this single thread goes past 99 will the whole forum explode?

bobscott
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby bobscott » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:31 pm

Kilkis wrote:
PS If the number of posts in this single thread goes past 99 will the whole forum explode?



Time for Carolina to start working out how to counteract an inbuilt self-destruct bug when the number of pages becomes 3-digits long? Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:44 pm

It's Y2K all over again. That was a 2 digit problem. Will planes fall out of the sky and milk curdle? Will you be able to access your bank account?

Warwick

Carolina
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Carolina » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:22 pm

bobscott wrote:
Kilkis wrote:
PS If the number of posts in this single thread goes past 99 will the whole forum explode?



Time for Carolina to start working out how to counteract an inbuilt self-destruct bug when the number of pages becomes 3-digits long? Bob.



I blame you Bob. You started it!

Toebs
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Toebs » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:55 pm

Kilkis wrote:My only argument with the article is that it has been going on for a lot longer than 10 years, more like 50. It is good to see main stream commentary starting to catch up with what economists, who don't follow "conventional wisdom", have been saying for a very long time. Not strictly Brexit but very relevant to it.


I've heard this said somewhat - that the rich get richer faster, and that people object to this.

I'm confused by this.

Wealth increases over time on a *percentage* basis.

If you start with 1000, and you get 5% a year, you have 1050 after a year.

If you start with 100, and you get 5% a year, you have 105 after a year.

*Of COURSE* the richer you are, the more rapidly you become richer.

This is not a problem.

What really matters is that people are getting richer as quickly as possible - that the growth rate of the economy is as high as it can (sustainably) be. That was as many people as possible, who have very little, are getting richer in absolute terms as quickly as possible. Who cares if other people are getting richer faster? they're not taking wealth from you.

Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:17 pm

You are correct that the same percentage increase for someone rich and someone poorer will result in the richer person getting more, Toebs. The problem is that the percentages don't stay the same.

Between the end of WW2 and 1971, approximately 50 % of all new capital produced went to the owners of original capital and 50 % went to the providers of labour. The ratio stayed pretty much fixed for all that period. Obviously there are far fewer owners of the original capital than there are providers of labour so their wealth increased more, as you say Toebs, but it stayed proportional. The wealth of the rich and the middle class both increased.

Over the last almost 50 years that has been very slowly changing so that now approximately 60 % of all new capital produced goes to the owners of original capital and only 40 % goes to the providers of labour. That change represents a transfer of wealth from the providers of labour to the owners of original capital not just a proportionate increase in the wealth of both. The changes in the financial system that made this possible were instigated by people at the top of the financial sector and it is the people at the top of the financial sector that have benefited the most.

People can feel this radical change in their everyday life but they don't know what has caused it so they are very susceptible to being convinced that one group or another is to blame.

Warwick

Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:16 am

What have immigrants ever done for us? So the leave campaign was right about a massive influx of immigrants from Turkey, they just got their timing a bit wrong. An easy mistake to make. What's 6,000 years between friends?

Warwick

Kamisiana
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kamisiana » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:22 pm

Macron is not having much luck lowering his carbon emissions. :twisted:
https://g8fip1kplyr33r3krz5b97d1-wpengi ... 24x726.jpg

bobscott
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby bobscott » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:49 pm

Carolina wrote:
bobscott wrote:
Kilkis wrote:
PS If the number of posts in this single thread goes past 99 will the whole forum explode?



Time for Carolina to start working out how to counteract an inbuilt self-destruct bug when the number of pages becomes 3-digits long? Bob.



I blame you Bob. You started it!

'
Touché Carol! Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Toebs
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Toebs » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:13 pm

Kilkis wrote:What have immigrants ever done for us?


REG: Yeah. All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have they ever given us in return?!

XERXES: The aqueduct?

REG: What?

XERXES: The aqueduct.

REG: Oh. Yeah, yeah. They did give us that. Uh, that's true. Yeah.

COMMANDO #3: And the sanitation.

LORETTA: Oh, yeah, the sanitation, Reg. Remember what the city used to be like?

REG: Yeah. All right. I'll grant you the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Romans have done.

MATTHIAS: And the roads.

REG: Well, yeah. Obviously the roads. I mean, the roads go without saying, don't they? But apart from the sanitation, the aqueduct, and the roads--

COMMANDO: Irrigation.

XERXES: Medicine.

COMMANDOS: Huh? Heh? Huh...

COMMANDO #2: Education.

COMMANDOS: Ohh...

REG: Yeah, yeah. All right. Fair enough.

COMMANDO #1: And the wine.

COMMANDOS: Oh, yes. Yeah...

FRANCIS: Yeah. Yeah, that's something we'd really miss, Reg, if the Romans left. Huh.

COMMANDO: Public baths.

LORETTA: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now, Reg.

FRANCIS: Yeah, they certainly know how to keep order. Let's face it. They're the only ones who could in a place like this.

COMMANDOS: Hehh, heh. Heh heh heh heh heh heh heh.

REG: All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?


Haven't even followed the link, just couldn't resist :-)

Toebs
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Toebs » Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:24 pm

Kilkis wrote:That change represents a transfer of wealth from the providers of labour to the owners of original capital not just a proportionate increase in the wealth of both.


No. It is wrong to call this a transfer - it implies a movement of something owned by one person, to another person.

So, to provide a contrast, printing money *is* a transfer. The value of each unit of currency is reduced, and this transfers wealth from those who have saved to those who have borrowed - and there is no consent to this transfer from either party; it is conducted by the State, who keeps to itself the value of the newly printed money. Not very nice.

When people work, there are people with capital who offer work to people who wish to work. (Of course, none or almost none of us -wish- to work, but we must, body and soul etc).

The terms of the contract define who gets paid what for what. The work done produces wealth, which is typically (minus salary costs, taxes, etc) retained by the person who made the investment.

There's no *transfer* here. The person offering work, offered, the person accepting, accepted.

It may be that over time that of the amount of wealth created, less has ended up (in the form of salary) in the hands of the employed person. The extent to which the wealth created ends up as salary is influenced by a large range of factors, but primarily I think by whether or the economy of growing or shrinking. A growing economy encourages wages rises, a shrinking economy encourages wage reductions. Technology has a major role to play here, and I suspect also people are basically a lot more efficient, over the whole of the economy, over a reasonable period of time : it genuinely costs less to do work. We can also look to China and India for an influx of low cost (and low living cost) workers in the global market.

None of this changes anything much, because all the capital that's around just gets invested, and creates more work. If it costs less to do work, or costs less for people to live (and so wages are lower - remember this is all relative; if inflation doubles wages, but living costs are lower so they only increase by 80%, then it's cheaper to live than before), then there's more work available.

People can feel this radical change in their everyday life but they don't know what has caused it so they are very susceptible to being convinced that one group or another is to blame.


I here say nothing about radical change, but I would say a lack of generalized "bullshit detector" makes a person vulnerable in all sorts of ways, and this would be one of them. Providing people with that detector is, in my view, one of the two sole goals of education. The educational systems in existence in the world have no concept of this as a goal, and that leads to events like Trump and the mis-use of fractional reserve banking to continually print money.

Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:12 pm

I simply cannot follow your convoluted argument, Toebs. How does the average person become wealthier? He works, earns money, consumes less than he earns and saves the difference.

Let's use the word "gain" to mean the amount left from the money a company receives from selling its products after deducting all costs except labour. Some of that gain goes to the people who provide the labour, in the form of wages, and some goes to the people who own the business, in the form of profit. If you change the situation from about 50 % going to each to a situation where 60 % goes to the owners of the company and 40 % to the people who provide the labour then those who own the company will get rich faster and those that provide the labour will get rich more slowly or get poorer. That is a transfer of wealth. If the division had stayed the same those providing the labour would have accumulated more wealth but they haven't. The wealth that they would have accumulated has gone to the owners of the company.

A House of Commons library documents projects that if the current trend continues, and there is no sign of it stopping, the top 1 % will go from owning 50 % of world wealth today to owning 64 % of world wealth in a decade. How long before the top 1 % own 100 %?

Warwick


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