The Will of the People

Temporary Forum - Please keep it CIVIL and ON TOPIC regarding updates/ news / concerns on British living / travelling in the EU.
Tim
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Tim » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:53 pm


Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:48 pm



I don't think that is the draft Withdrawal Agreement "in full", Tim. It is a 37 page slide presentation explaining the withdrawal agreement. The actual withdrawal agreement is a 585 page text document.

It is interesting that the explanatory presentation states on page 35, "What Does it Mean?

    End to free movement of people in UK

but nowhere else in the presentation does it mention the end to free movement. As far as I can tell it is not explicitly dealt with in the full document. I haven't read the full document BUT I have searched for typical terms and I have read the full section on Citizens' Rights, which deals with the rights of existing ex-pats as described in the December 2017 protocol.

Warwick

PS I have no problem with free movement but since it was an important issue in the debate you would have thought there would be some specific mention?

peebee
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby peebee » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:01 pm

Philb wrote:
scooby wrote:There's a lot of things Brexitards say make me laugh.


Classy, real classy :shock:


A bit like your use of 'remoaner'[/quote]

It's a bit different calling someone a moaner, to calling someone a retard.

Maud
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Maud » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:13 pm

May has addressed the CBI today looking for their backing for the deal that is on the table. The situation has now become one of.....‘accept this deal....or end up with a no deal’ scenario. My concern is that if over two years no answer has been resolved to the ‘backstop’ situation, how is that going to change in the future? Surely if there was a sensible option it would have been found by now? We are now in ‘panic mode’ and grasping at ways to keep all channels open, and as a result not pleasing anyone.

What May still does not grasp is that public opinion might possibley have changed. I am not saying it has, but there is a strong possibility that the majority of U.K. citizens are now against Brexit.....all be it a small majority, just like it was in the original referendum. People see jobs being lost and investment being taken elsewhere in Europe. See the excerpt below.....

May received the backing of Carolyn Fairbairn, the head of the CBI, who warned that UK firms were cancelling investments in Britain.

Speaking before the prime minister’s address, she said one company had scrapped a £100m investment in the north-east of England that had instead gone to eastern Europe. Although refusing to name the company, she warned the anecdote represented a “pattern” of behaviour among major companies against a backdrop of no-deal Brexit.

She said: “Our firms are spending hundreds of millions of pounds preparing for the worst case – and not one penny of it will create new jobs or new products.

“While other countries are forging a competitive future, Westminster seems to be living in its own narrow world, in which extreme positions are being allowed to dominate.”

Raab was on the Andrew Marr show yesterday accusing the EU of bullying the U.K. Such extreme language does nothing to assist negotiations over Brexit. He also still states that no deal is better than a bad deal. - The word bullying is Johnson and Rees-Mogg language as usual. Theses are the politicians who want Brexit for their own career gain and power. An extra £10 on their shopping bill every week is not going to bother them, neither are job losses in the NE and other areas. As long as they are in power, they will be happy. What they cannot cope with is being told what to do by others.......which is why they are so anti the EU.

Sadly this ‘get back control’ and ‘the will of the people’ mantra, along with claims of bullying by UK politicians against the EU, has generated a loathing of the EU by many people, (who also don’t like being told what to do!), and has led to a number of people voting for Brexit. Some of those people now see the economic cost to themselves and the country, and are ready to vote to remain. Of course, the far right Brexiteers in the government know this.......hence not wanting another vote. Unfortunately May is blinded by the fact that she feels her party (and herself), will ‘lose face’ if she puts another vote to the people, so she is ploughing on regardless claiming ‘The people of the U.K. voted for Brexit.’ - She must have been very bad at maths at school!

I agree with Warwick in that any question posed by a ‘People’s Vote’ would be difficult to phrase. I still believe that in a true democracy however the U.K. public should be given the opportunity to vote on any deal now they know the cost to the U.K. people and the country.

scooby

Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:28 pm

peebee wrote:
Philb wrote:
scooby wrote:There's a lot of things Brexitards say make me laugh.


Classy, real classy :shock:


A bit like your use of 'remoaner'


It's a bit different calling someone a moaner, to calling someone a retard.[/quote]
Thanks peebee, thought I would just leave it and not expecting an apology.

scooby

Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:35 pm

Maud wrote:May has addressed the CBI today looking for their backing for the deal that is on the table. The situation has now become one of.....‘accept this deal....or end up with a no deal’ scenario. My concern is that if over two years no answer has been resolved to the ‘backstop’ situation, how is that going to change in the future? Surely if there was a sensible option it would have been found by now? We are now in ‘panic mode’ and grasping at ways to keep all channels open, and as a result not pleasing anyone.

What May still does not grasp is that public opinion might possibley have changed. I am not saying it has, but there is a strong possibility that the majority of U.K. citizens are now against Brexit.....all be it a small majority, just like it was in the original referendum. People see jobs being lost and investment being taken elsewhere in Europe. See the excerpt below.....

May received the backing of Carolyn Fairbairn, the head of the CBI, who warned that UK firms were cancelling investments in Britain.

Speaking before the prime minister’s address, she said one company had scrapped a £100m investment in the north-east of England that had instead gone to eastern Europe. Although refusing to name the company, she warned the anecdote represented a “pattern” of behaviour among major companies against a backdrop of no-deal Brexit.

She said: “Our firms are spending hundreds of millions of pounds preparing for the worst case – and not one penny of it will create new jobs or new products.

“While other countries are forging a competitive future, Westminster seems to be living in its own narrow world, in which extreme positions are being allowed to dominate.”

Raab was on the Andrew Marr show yesterday accusing the EU of bullying the U.K. Such extreme language does nothing to assist negotiations over Brexit. He also still states that no deal is better than a bad deal. - The word bullying is Johnson and Rees-Mogg language as usual. Theses are the politicians who want Brexit for their own career gain and power. An extra £10 on their shopping bill every week is not going to bother them, neither are job losses in the NE and other areas. As long as they are in power, they will be happy. What they cannot cope with is being told what to do by others.......which is why they are so anti the EU.

Sadly this ‘get back control’ and ‘the will of the people’ mantra, along with claims of bullying by UK politicians against the EU, has generated a loathing of the EU by many people, (who also don’t like being told what to do!), and has led to a number of people voting for Brexit. Some of those people now see the economic cost to themselves and the country, and are ready to vote to remain. Of course, the far right Brexiteers in the government know this.......hence not wanting another vote. Unfortunately May is blinded by the fact that she feels her party (and herself), will ‘lose face’ if she puts another vote to the people, so she is ploughing on regardless claiming ‘The people of the U.K. voted for Brexit.’ - She must have been very bad at maths at school!

I agree with Warwick in that any question posed by a ‘People’s Vote’ would be difficult to phrase. I still believe that in a true democracy however the U.K. public should be given the opportunity to vote on any deal now they know the cost to the U.K. people and the country.
I'm sorry Maud but nobody knows the cost to the UK and in a true democracy the country needs to leave the EU. How that is done is down to the powers that be.

Guy M
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Guy M » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:49 pm

Maud wrote:I agree with Warwick in that any question posed by a ‘People’s Vote’ would be difficult to phrase. I still believe that in a true democracy however the U.K. public should be given the opportunity to vote on any deal now they know the cost to the U.K. people and the country.



In principle, this sounds right, but....the only deal the U.K. will ever be offered by the EU is a version of the one in the Withdrawal Agreement. So, first step is to get this through Parliament. If this happens, it’s quite a risk to ask people to vote on it - what if they say no? What if they say yes by a small amount or no by a small amount? There’s enough turmoil in the U.K. and entrenched positions - I wouldn’t gamble. If the Withdrawal Agreement doesn’t get through Parliament, there’s a fair chance that Britain is ungovernable while we work out what to do next. No other proposal will likely get through Parliament as it currently stands, the government won’t dissolve Parliament now there is the Fixed Term Act and the threat of losing power and unblocking this may take the Royal Prerogative - the Queen to the rescue!

In short, it’s a political and constitutional crisis the like of which we have never seen. I voted Remain, my family all voted Remain, I have a house in Crete as well as the U.K., much of my work is in Europe, I worked with the EU on a project in France for 18 months and on shorter projects in the U.K. p, elsewhere in Europe and all over Africa - the EU has been good for me. With a heavy heart, I think we should just sign up to the Withdrawal Agreement and make the best of it. There is zero nation-building going on and we should get on with it. In the five stages of grief model, we need to get through denial, anger, bargaining and depression and get to acceptance as soon as we can.

bobscott
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby bobscott » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:06 pm

I am grateful to those who responded to my questions. There is one other small problem that I have in dealing with this issue, and it was alluded to in Warwick’s (as usual) full and comprehensive response.

That is the fixation with ‘Respect the referendum result’. I am not quite sure what that means. The individual words of course are plain, but what is the sentiment behind them? Is it ‘we should do our utmost to fall in line with what the majority voted for’? Is it ‘we should take account of what the majority voted for, but not necessarily follow it blindly’? Is it ‘we shouldn’t do anything to upset those who were in the majority’?

We have general elections, on average, about once every five years. When I still had a vote in the UK, I have no recollection of ever considering the vote the previous time and wanting to ‘respect it’ (whatever it means). On the contrary, there were occasions when I wanted to do my damndest to overturn the previous result. A change of government, of policies, generally caring for the people was seen, often, as A Good Thing.

Apart from the time-scale (and does that REALLY make a difference), what/who is it that is wanting to tie us to the result of the last referendum? Why shouldn’t we change our minds? We were promised a lot of things last time in terms of leaving the EU which plainly ranged through the spectrum from ‘pie in the sky’, through to downright lies. That is what we know now. And in light of that, why should we care a fig about what happened 18 months ago? Given what we now know (not what we have been merely promised) why not give us another chance to have a say in our destiny?

A lot was made at the time of the referendum of the older people selling the younger generation down the river by wanting to abandon the EU. Well, as someone almost of octogenarian status, can I try to reassure my children and grandchildren that I for one am not happy at the way in which a vociferous minority is trying to drag us kicking and screaming down a road that we know is little more than a muddy track, shrouded in mist with no real end in sight simply to satisfy their own ends? Repeating untruths ad nauseam does not turn them into fact!

As one of the commentators said in the press today, the politicians who are driving this need to get themselves out of the Westminster Bubble and all the egocentricity that entails, and think about the rest of us; we who do not have the ability or wherewithal to move our ‘fortunes’ and businesses to a ‘safe haven’. Now there’s an idea!! Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Maud
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Maud » Mon Nov 19, 2018 4:44 pm

Your last paragraph is what I was inferring to in my post Bob, and it is correct.

I agree with you up to a point Guy, and I also think the current deal is the best we are going to get.....but that doesn’t make what is happening right. As Bob has just clearly explained again, surely it is time to take stock and look at the who picture. Is it really ‘the will of the people’ any longer to leave the EU? Surely it makes sense to be sure the majority of people in the U.K want Brexit, now that we all understand the problems involved? I have NO problem with a majority vote, whichever way it goes, as long as it is truly what the U.K. public want.

This is not being undemocratic Scooby. What is democratic about asking the people re the referendum, and not asking them again now they know what leaving the EU will mean to the U.K? - And as for not knowing the cost of Brexit, even Johnson and Rees Mogg have admitted that the next 10 years will be financially difficult for the country. (Mogg even mentioned 50 years!). Do you really see that as a good thing for the U.K. and its people? If you dispute that, then you have not read the article from the CBI properly. Please read Carolyn Fairbain’s comment.

Guy M
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Guy M » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:31 pm

The ‘respect the results of the referendum’ talk is just a device people use to win an argument - or to shut an argument down if they are losing. Over 17 million people voted to leave the EU in the referendum. They did this for a variety of reasons; as a result, as we are finding out now, not every Leave voting person is going to be happy with the terms of leaving. Indeed we all interpret ‘leave’ in a different way, so one person may think it means leaving the European Union’s trading agreements but not some European institutions and others may think it means leaving all European institutions including Euratom (I’d never heard of this one but it covers civilian nuclear activities apparently - and we are leaving it, I think).

Your very good question, Bob, illustrates why referenda are not often used - they boil down complicated matters to a simple yes or no answer and then the question is asked to the general public who will never have enough information or knowledge to make informed judgments. That is why we have representative democracy rather than direct democracy - there is more chance of decisions being taken on a rational basis rather than because of emotion. For this reason I think we should never have had a referendum (blame Cameron, the worst Prime Minister since Lord North who gave away the American colonies in 1776) but also we shouldn’t have another one or a People’s Vote - we will just be deciding whether 500 plus pages of dense legal text is right for the U.K. on the basis of emotion when we are completely unqualified to do so.

scooby

Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:12 pm

Maud wrote:Your last paragraph is what I was inferring to in my post Bob, and it is correct.

I agree with you up to a point Guy, and I also think the current deal is the best we are going to get.....but that doesn’t make what is happening right. As Bob has just clearly explained again, surely it is time to take stock and look at the who picture. Is it really ‘the will of the people’ any longer to leave the EU? Surely it makes sense to be sure the majority of people in the U.K want Brexit, now that we all understand the problems involved? I have NO problem with a majority vote, whichever way it goes, as long as it is truly what the U.K. public want.

This is not being undemocratic Scooby. What is democratic about asking the people re the referendum, and not asking them again now they know what leaving the EU will mean to the U.K? - And as for not knowing the cost of Brexit, even Johnson and Rees Mogg have admitted that the next 10 years will be financially difficult for the country. (Mogg even mentioned 50 years!). Do you really see that as a good thing for the U.K. and its people? If you dispute that, then you have not read the article from the CBI properly. Please read Carolyn Fairbain’s comment.
Did you watch the debate I put up? 3 remainers and 3 leavers?

scooby

Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:14 pm

I and a lot of people are just getting sick and tired of all the same words being spoken and written, it's just going round in circles. I am very anti Tory party but I tell you what, I hope they stay in power and see it through properly!

Jeffstclair
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Jeffstclair » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:39 pm

Yeah, that is what this divisive thing was designed to do.. and has done ...I too am very anti tory party... but I hope they don't stay in power and see this dreadful thing through properly ....

Guy M
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Guy M » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:14 pm

Jeffstclair wrote:Yeah, that is what this divisive thing was designed to do.. and has done ...I too am very anti tory party... but I hope they don't stay in power and see this dreadful thing through properly ....


I think they are separate things: they will stay in power (until 2022 under the Fixed Term Act) and they won’t see this thing through properly, if past experience is any guide - it’s a not very competent set of gangsters in charge, you know.

Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:16 pm

And there are around 33.5 million different views of what "properly" means.

Warwick


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