The Will of the People

Temporary Forum - Please keep it CIVIL and ON TOPIC regarding updates/ news / concerns on British living / travelling in the EU.
bobscott
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby bobscott » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:01 am

oops, sorry! Bob
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:28 am

No problem, Bob. I wasn't really having a go at you. I was sounding off because again and again people make criticisms of the EU and how it operates that aren't valid, either because the EU doesn't operate in the way described or the issue is nothing to do with the EU.

You can take it a step further since a lot of criticism of the European Convention on Human Rights and decisions made by the European Court of Human Rights are actually nothing to do with that particular convention. They are rulings made under the European Convention for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. That convention was also enacted under the Council of Europe and judgements of cases brought under it are also made by the European Court of Human Rights but it is a completely separate convention.

Warwick

altohb
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby altohb » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:30 am

Kilkis wrote:No problem, Bob. I wasn't really having a go at you. I was sounding off because again and again people make criticisms of the EU and how it operates that aren't valid, either because the EU doesn't operate in the way described or the issue is nothing to do with the EU.

Warwick


This is familiar, Warwick. I'm very tired of having this type of conversation as well.

hairybloke
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby hairybloke » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:12 pm

Wow, 27 pages on this thread now. Is that a record?

bobscott
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby bobscott » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:38 pm

hairybloke wrote:Wow, 27 pages on this thread now. Is that a record?

Yes, probably. I didn't know what I was starting!!!!!!!!!!!! But it's good to be able to blow off a bit of steam now and again whilst keeping to Carolina's general guidelines of civility. Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Guy M
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Guy M » Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:16 pm

I don’t think there should ever have been a referendum on such a complicated, emotive subject. Every debate I have seen since has involved people shouting at each other (actually or metaphorically) with limited understanding of the complexities of the issues - we never really rise above the ‘four legs good, two legs bad’ of Animal Farm. We’re certainly not qualified to judge the Withdrawal Agreement, nor to vote on the basis of what we may or may not have found out since June 2016 about leaving or remaining in the EU. I guess many in the EU can’t wait for the U.K. to leave, so they can get on without the distraction, the jibes, the rudeness of the press etc. For these many reasons, we definitely should not have another referendum or People’s Vote. Parliament should big up and make a decision for the country and we should all big up and accept we are leaving the EU and take the consequences.

Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:26 pm

Guy M wrote:...I guess many in the EU can’t wait for the U.K. to leave, so they can get on without the distraction, the jibes, the rudeness of the press etc...


This may be true but there also many in the EU who don't feel like this. Many EU member states are quite aligned with the UK in their thinking and value the support of the UK against member states that don't think in the same way. From my limited experience the UK has been pretty active in formulating EU law despite the meme that it is imposed on us. There is also the net contribution to the budget that will be missed.

I like Terry Pratchet as an author and have read all the Diskworld novels. He also wrote a short series starting with The Science of Discworld in 1999 with popular science writers Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen. The format is basically a typical Diskworld novel with each chapter interspersed with a more serious chapter that tries to explain the science behind what had happened in the preceding chapter. The authors coined a beautiful phrase to describe scientific theories - "Lies we tell our children". I often think it is an apposite description for most media commentary on political life.

Warwick

Keltz
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Keltz » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:35 am

Guy M wrote:Parliament should big up and make a decision for the country and we should all big up and accept we are leaving the EU and take the consequences.


Parliament has confirmed through independent assessments leaving the largest trading block in the world will harm the U.K. and reduce living standards. Government has refused to publish their own independent assessments on the impact of Brexit using delay tactics to bypass democratic processes at Westminster where they have been found in contempt of parliamentary process.

The clear majority opinion in parliament is to suspend article 50 and remove the ticking clock that is driving us towards a policy that will clearly harm the majority of people, being that the first principle of parliament is to protect its population. That would be the sensible thing to do.

Unfortunately the core problem at Westminster is its inability to evolve and accept it is no longer representative of the 4 nations of the UK, instead entrenched in its own importance and powers where the House of Lords is now the second largest unelected second chamber in the world beaten only by China.

scooby
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:47 am

Keltz wrote:
Guy M wrote:Parliament should big up and make a decision for the country and we should all big up and accept we are leaving the EU and take the consequences.


Parliament has confirmed through independent assessments leaving the largest trading block in the world will harm the U.K. and reduce living standards. Government has refused to publish their own independent assessments on the impact of Brexit using delay tactics to bypass democratic processes at Westminster where they have been found in contempt of parliamentary process.

The clear majority opinion in parliament is to suspend article 50 and remove the ticking clock that is driving us towards a policy that will clearly harm the majority of people, being that the first principle of parliament is to protect its population. That would be the sensible thing to do.

Unfortunately the core problem at Westminster is its inability to evolve and accept it is no longer representative of the 4 nations of the UK, instead entrenched in its own importance and powers where the House of Lords is now the second largest unelected second chamber in the world beaten only by China.
As far as I am aware, the EU in their inflexible stance (at the moment) will only agree to extend article 50 on one of three conditions, either a general election (can't see that happening) to ratify the agreement (won't get through parliament as it stands) or a 2nd referendum is called. I think the only way forward is that parliament will take control and put different options forward.So for all the MP's calling to extend article 50, so far one of those options must be met.
Men in suits will always make you pay.

Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:38 am

I am not sure what putting forward different options now would achieve? There are only three options that are within the control of the UK parliament and can be met within the existing timescale:

    1 Accept the May deal.
    2 Do nothing and revert to WTO rules for all UK trade on 30 March.
    3 Revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU.

I do not believe that any other option could be implemented between now and 29 March. Any other option would require an extension to Article 50 and, as you say, that requires the unanimous agreement of all 27 member states.

I think it is unfair to describe the EU stance as inflexible. The EU made it clear from the beginning that many options were possible and they were willing to discuss any of them. May's deal is the outcome because that is what May negotiated. It is true that the outcome is constrained by the rules under which the EU operates but that was always going to be the case. It is a rule based organisation. When you are trying to deal with 28 independent sovereign states all with their own ideas it is essential that it is rule based. It was also constrained by May's red lines. When you choose to go down a certain road, as May did, you arrive at the destination where that road leads. The EU did not dictate which road May should chose.

In reality the only thing that is fixed in the May deal at the moment is the withdrawal agreement part. All the alternatives being talked about are part of the future relationship and, in principle, it could be a Norway type deal, a Switzerland type deal, a Canada type deal etc, flavoured with as many + or - signs as you wish to suit your taste. Each of them comes with its own consequences and whichever one you choose large sections of parliament will argue against it because of those consequences.

Warwick

Kamisiana
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kamisiana » Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:49 pm

A short article by Greg Hands on (the power is with us) Martin Selmayr and the EU negotiations I have no doubt 80 years ago
Herr Selmayr would have been high ranking in another European movement.
https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comm ... 35356.html

scooby
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:22 pm

Warwick, my opinion is that the EU stance is totally unfair, not only unfair but unreasonable, they have put 3 options on the table for the UK to be able to extend article 50 and they all play into their hands. I understand they would want a "reason" for agreeing to extend it, but leaving by default to WTO I would have thought would have been enough for them to agree to an extension.
Men in suits will always make you pay.

Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:37 pm

Perhaps the threat of WTO would be sufficient reason for the EU to reconsider. If the vote fails on Tuesday then there is a very simple way to find out. All Theresa May has to do is write a letter to Michel Barnier telling him that it is not possible to get parliament to agree to the negotiated deal so the UK has no option but to leave on 29 March without a deal and from 30 March 2019 the UK will trade with the EU under WTO rules UNLESS the EU is prepared to negotiate a different deal that is acceptable to parliament. The EU will then either back down or let the UK leave with no deal and it will end all speculation as to whether the EU stance is just a negotiating ploy.

It would be interesting to see both how the EU reacts but also how parliament reacts to such a letter.

Warwick

Tim
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Tim » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:38 pm

Of course it's possible that there is already another deal that's been agreed with the EU, which won't be presented to the Commons until after Mrs May is defeated on Tuesday. It could then be presented as a wonderful compromise and enough MP's might sign up to it to get it through. It would explain why the PM seems fairly sanguine about potentially suffering the heaviest defeat in parliamentary history. Many commentators have noted that where European deals are concerned the last minute 'rabbit out of the hat' isn't uncommon.

Tim

scooby
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:22 pm

Tim wrote:Of course it's possible that there is already another deal that's been agreed with the EU, which won't be presented to the Commons until after Mrs May is defeated on Tuesday. It could then be presented as a wonderful compromise and enough MP's might sign up to it to get it through. It would explain why the PM seems fairly sanguine about potentially suffering the heaviest defeat in parliamentary history. Many commentators have noted that where European deals are concerned the last minute 'rabbit out of the hat' isn't uncommon.

Tim
I could be wrong but I think the EU re negotiated and gave legal assurances to the Irish when they voted no in their referendum, it was enough to go back to a 2nd referendum.
Men in suits will always make you pay.


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