The Will of the People

Temporary Forum - Please keep it CIVIL and ON TOPIC regarding updates/ news / concerns on British living / travelling in the EU.
Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:51 pm

bobscott wrote:...The problem is that it was months, if not a year before anyone realised just what the impact was going to be in the island of Ireland...


I think plenty of people, including many in government, knew what the problem would be but couldn't talk about it. The leave idea was sold on the basis that the EU would be forced to give the UK the same access as it had as a member. If that had been true then the Irish border would not be a problem. To immediately flag up the fact that the Irish border was going to be a problem was also to admit that the original proposition was a lie, i.e. they had lied. If they ignored it for a long time then they could claim that it shouldn't have been a problem but it is all down to those nasty people in Brussels.

Basically if they had admitted to the problem on day one they could have taken action that would have mitigated the problem to the benefit of the country but would have been to their detriment because it would have exposed their lies. If they ignored it their lies would not be exposed but it would be to the detriment of the country. It's hardly surprising which choice they made.

Warwick

scooby

Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:35 pm

Kilkis wrote:
bobscott wrote:...The problem is that it was months, if not a year before anyone realised just what the impact was going to be in the island of Ireland...


I think plenty of people, including many in government, knew what the problem would be but couldn't talk about it. The leave idea was sold on the basis that the EU would be forced to give the UK the same access as it had as a member. If that had been true then the Irish border would not be a problem. To immediately flag up the fact that the Irish border was going to be a problem was also to admit that the original proposition was a lie, i.e. they had lied. If they ignored it for a long time then they could claim that it shouldn't have been a problem but it is all down to those nasty people in Brussels.

Basically if they had admitted to the problem on day one they could have taken action that would have mitigated the problem to the benefit of the country but would have been to their detriment because it would have exposed their lies. If they ignored it their lies would not be exposed but it would be to the detriment of the country. It's hardly surprising which choice they made.

Warwick
I didn't hear either side mention the problem of Ireland, so to say it was to cover up the leave side lies is very questionable indeed. Both sides are equal in their ignorance in my opinion.

bobscott
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby bobscott » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:39 pm

If the Remain side had thought of it surely they would have shouted it from the roof-tops? What would be the advantage of keeping schtum? If the Leave side had thought of it then yes, it would have been at least a deceit - like a lot of other claims. I just think no-one had really given a thought to it or it would have been aired long before it actually was. A bit like Raab claiming he had no idea so much trade went across the Dover/Calais route. Just shows how ignorant we all were of what was really going on. Even Rees-Mogg took his time shifting his assets from the UK to the EU (that dreadful 'thing' that he is demanding we leave!). The bare-faced deceit of some of our politicians is very 'Trumpian'!! They do say a country gets the government it deserves. Perhaps they are right???
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:49 pm

I didn't say the leave side covered up the Irish border problem, Scooby. I didn't say that the leave side lied about the Irish border problem. The leave side said that the UK would have exactly the same access to the EU that it had as a member. They said it during the campaign. They said it in parliament immediately after the result was announced. They have continued to say it throughout the negotiation. If it was true then nothing is a problem. The Irish border is not a problem. Dover - Calais is not a problem. Supply chains are not a problem. Just in time manufacturing is not a problem. Medical supplies are not a problem. Food supplies are not a problem.

The EU has always said the UK cannot have the same access as that of a member. The UK has no control over that decision. It is that decision that causes all the other problems. The leave side knew the EU would not allow the same access. That was the lie. It didn't really matter what the remain side said. Everything was just project fear so you could safely ignore it.

Warwick

Bagshot
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Location: Crete

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Bagshot » Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:03 pm


Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:10 am

To clarify, my last post was referring to trade not free movement of people. Lord Lawson was one of those that explicitly stated that trade would be on exactly the same terms as being a member of the EU. I sat and listened to him being interviewed so I am not relying on reports of what he said. His comments in the linked article are about free movement of people. They are two different issues but I agree they are both relevant to the issue of whether some sort of border is reinstated.

Warwick

Bagshot
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Location: Crete

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Bagshot » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:01 am

The article is headed "... Custom Controls ...", and then comments on movement of goods and people.
It seems to me to be remarkably contemporary for a pre-referendum article!

scooby

Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:29 am

It amazes me that both sides, i.e remain and leave politicians didn't debate the question of the Irish border more forcefully before the referendum. As Warwick said, work could have started straight away finding a technical solution after the referendum.

scooby

Re: The Will of the People

Postby scooby » Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:19 pm

I love this part of the Prime Minister's begging letter:

We will take back control of our money, by putting an end to vast annual payments to the EU. Instead, we will be able to spend British taxpayer’s money on our own priorities like the extra £394 million per week that we are investing in our long-term plan for the NHS.

Now she is a true lying Brexiteer! Brilliant, you couldn't make it up.

Kilkis
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Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:43 pm

It is another good example of where the government tells you something that is basically true but simultaneously misleads you. It is true that, as an EU member, the UK does pay a large contribution to the EU budget. It is also true that when the UK leaves the EU it will not pay the same contribution. It is the figures that are a nonsense. Using 2017 figures, i.e. the last complete year:

The UK is assessed as owing €12.4 billion based on a percentage of Gross National Income so that comes out of tax payers money.
The UK is assessed as owing €3.2 billion based on a percentage of VAT collected so that comes out of tax payers money.
The UK is assessed as being owed €5 billion by the EU as a correction negotiated by Thatcher.

Thus altogether the UK pays to the EU €(12.4 + 3.2 - 5) billion = €10.6 billion out of tax payers' money. That is equivalent to approximately €204 million per week or £180 million per week at today's exchange rate. So £210 million per week less than the government claims. More than half what the government have promised to pay extra to the NHS will come out of additional UK taxation of one form or another.

The UK does also pay an additional €3.2 billion to the EU but that is 80 % of customs duties collected on goods from third countries entering the EU through the UK. That is not UK taxpayers' money. We keep 20 % of the customs duties to cover the administrative cost of collecting them. You could argue that the UK will be collecting those customs duties for itself after it has left the EU and so they represent additional funds the government can spend on the NHS BUT the aim of leaving is to do free trade deals with third countries so they will vanish. The government can't have it both ways.

In addition to the gross exaggeration, in the short term the UK will continue to pay its full budget contribution up to 2020 since that is the end of the current 5 year budget period that we have committed to so there will be no extra money available until then. Some experts have claimed that this is not legally binding but I suspect that if the EU takes a case to an International Court we will discover that it is. There is also talk that the transition period might need to be extended to 2022 in which case there would be no available funds for the NHS due to Brexit until then which is also the end of the current government.

Apart from budget contributions the UK also has a legal commitment to the pension liabilities of the EU. That is the other half of the €40 billion amount agreed in the withdrawal deal. That will require paying over a long period of time so the amount per year will be less but still not negligible.

Finally the EU pays €6.3 billion back to the UK in various subsidies and development grants. That is equivalent to €121 million per week or about £107 million per week. It is true that the UK government will be able to decide its own priorities and give £180 million per week to the NHS but if it intends to do so it should also be telling all those who benefit from the EU expenditure that they are going to get nothing.

Not quite how the prime minister presented it but how many people will look up the figures?

Warwick

Guy M
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Location: Kalamitsi Alexandrou

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Guy M » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:47 am

Today is quite a sad day: the agreement to leave is signed, so Brits will presumably go in a different queue from EU nationals at immigration in Crete. A real pain for me, as my wife and daughters got Irish passports (through my father-in-law) and i’m Stuck with a not so useful British one. They are already laughing at me, as presumably is the rest of the World. Hey ho.

BST
Posts: 568
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:29 pm

Re: The Will of the People

Postby BST » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:54 am

Yes it is very sad and depressing. It's also going to make travelling more tedious.

Kilkis
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Location: Near Chania

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Kilkis » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:39 am

I have some sympathy, Guy. My paternal great grandfather was Irish, married an Irish woman, in Ireland, and had most of their children in Ireland. Unfortunately the family moved to England before my grandfather, one of his youngest sons, was born so I don't believe that I qualify for an Irish passport. If he had moved a little bit later I would have qualified.

Looking on the bright side they might introduce a UK Only lane at Gatwick, and other UK airports, either as part of a three lane system, i.e. UK Only, EU Only and Other, or a two lane system, i.e. UK Only and Other, so we might get processed a bit quicker going in that direction.

Warwick

Guy M
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Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:20 pm
Location: Kalamitsi Alexandrou

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Guy M » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:46 am

Kilkis wrote:.Looking on the bright side they might introduce a UK Only lane at Gatwick, and other UK airports, either as part of a three lane system, i.e. UK Only, EU Only and Other, or a two lane system, i.e. UK Only and Other, so we might get processed a bit quicker going in that direction.

Warwick


That made me smile. Thank you.

Mixos
Posts: 504
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Location: North East Crete or S.W.England

Re: The Will of the People

Postby Mixos » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:05 am

I can't speak for Chania as I haven't flown to/from there for over 20 years, but I can't see how this will make any difference at Heraklion, where UK flight arrivals already pass through the extra-Schengen gates. If you're lucky and first off the transit bus you can sail straight through, but you can wait quite a while if -- as sometimes happens -- there's only one bored policeman checking passports. Not sure how or why that will change. And of course if you come in to Heraklion from Athens on a domestic flight none of that will apply, as the border check will have been done there.


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