New! Greek Draft law on Brexit

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Carolina
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New! Greek Draft law on Brexit

Postby Carolina » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:05 pm

26th March 2019 Greek Government Gazette - New Greek Draft Law on Brexit No Deal

RESIDENCE RIGHTS

Our current EU residence registration and permanent registration certificates will be VALID UNTIL DECEMBER 2020.

Any British Citizen currently not registered can register until December 2020 and obtain the current EU registration certificate.
Also new arrivals into Greece, before December 2020, can also register and obtain the current EU registration certificate.

After December 2020
Those with 5 years permanent residence (those holding the current EU blue card) will be able to automatically apply two months before 31.12.2020 for a new 5 year permit, with a criminal record check. Renewable every 5 years.

Those with less than 5 years permanent residence at 31/12/2020 (those holding the current beige EU card) will be able to APPLY for a 3 year permit, includes criminal record check too. Renewable every 3 years, with criteria (yet to be stated), until you reach 5 years residence when you can change to a permanent resident's 5 year permit.

HEALTHCARE
Those already registered maintain right to healthcare until December this year (2019)


UK Citizens arriving in Greece after 30.3.2019 (date should change to April 12th or insert ..... new date...)
NO free access to national health system'.

Assume this will mean new S1 forms, not registered with IKA/EFKA by Brexit date, will not be accepted/valid.

This would be updated if a reciprocal healthcare agreement is reached.

The above seeems to follow the Withdrawal Agreement, so in either case (current withdrawal deal or no deal) this will be our position after Brexit (only exception would be if we remain in the single market & keep freedom of movement).

LAW: Article 123 to 128 https://www.esos.gr/sites/default/files ... GUYbDeLtYA

Link to short article in English http://corporaterelocations.gr/brexit-g ... gislation/

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Re: New! Greek Draft law on Brexit

Postby Carolina » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:21 pm

P.S. the Greek government Brexit website has yet to be updated (perhaps waiting for the law to pass through parliament?) http://brexit.gov.gr/uk-citizens-in-greece/

Jeffstclair
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Re: New! Greek Draft law on Brexit

Postby Jeffstclair » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:01 pm

Thanks for that Carol..

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Re: New! Greek Draft law on Brexit

Postby Kilkis » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:41 pm

Carolina wrote:...The above seeems to follow the Withdrawal Agreement, so in either case (current withdrawal deal or no deal) this will be our position after Brexit ...


I think there are three small differences between this arrangement and the Withdrawal Agreement, which might become important:

    1 Regarding healthcare, a reciprocal arrangement is built into the Withdrawal Agreement so leaving on that basis guarantees continuing healthcare into the future. In this law it is only guaranteed up to the end of 2019 and is then dependent on a bilateral agreement being reached.
    2 On residency rights under the Withdrawal Agreement those with 5 year residency would be able to exchange their current certificate for a new certificate that would also be permanent. Under this law it is renewable every 5 years.
    3 There is no mention of reciprocal pension rights in this law while there is in the Withdrawal Agreement.

Warwick

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Re: New! Greek Draft law on Brexit

Postby Carolina » Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:29 pm

Kilkis wrote:
    1 Regarding healthcare, a reciprocal arrangement is built into the Withdrawal Agreement so leaving on that basis guarantees continuing healthcare into the future. In this law it is only guaranteed up to the end of 2019 and is then dependent on a bilateral agreement being reached.
    2 On residency rights under the Withdrawal Agreement those with 5 year residency would be able to exchange their current certificate for a new certificate that would also be permanent. Under this law it is renewable every 5 years.
    3 There is no mention of reciprocal pension rights in this law while there is in the Withdrawal Agreement.

Warwick


Thanks Warwick.

Also other issues, in the event of no deal, not covered in this bill: access to employment, professional and academic qualifications, also
the use of driving licenses issued by the United Kingdom in Greece. These will be ' regulated by common decisions of the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the competent Minister for each case' .

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Re: New! Greek Draft law on Brexit

Postby YoMo2 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:16 am

But what abut Greek law 4368, as discussed in this thread?: http://www.livingincrete.net/board/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11626&p=75062&hilit=4368#p75062

Surely we all still get healthcare via this route regardless of S1 and withdrawal agreement? Assuming of course we are legally living in Greece.

Andrew

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Re: New! Greek Draft law on Brexit

Postby Carolina » Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:44 pm

YoMo2 wrote:But what abut Greek law 4368, as discussed in this thread?: http://www.livingincrete.net/board/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11626&p=75062&hilit=4368#p75062

Surely we all still get healthcare via this route regardless of S1 and withdrawal agreement? Assuming of course we are legally living in Greece.

Andrew


I would guess that while holding the EU registration or residence card (cards as now stated to be valid to December 2020), then I guess yes you can still get hospital care if you have an AMKA number.

Note that that law is for hospital care - inpatients/outpatients - only and doesn't give you the same rights as an S1 form and IKA book, which give you the rights to register with an EOPYY G.P. and have subsidised tests & scans in private labs & clinics etc.

To updgrade to the new residence permits after 2020, as third country nationals we may well have to prove our own health insurance (private or working and contributing in Greece) to change to the new permit.

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Re: New! Greek Draft law on Brexit

Postby bobscott » Tue Apr 02, 2019 5:49 am

[quote="Carolina"]

I would guess that while holding the EU registration or residence card (cards as now stated to be valid to December 2020), then I guess yes you can still get hospital care if you have an AMKA number.

Note that that law is for hospital care - inpatients/outpatients - only and doesn't give you the same rights as an S1 form and IKA book, which give you the rights to register with an EOPYY G.P. and have subsidised tests & scans in private labs & clinics etc.

To updgrade to the new residence permits after 2020, as third country nationals we may well have to prove our own health insurance (private or working and contributing in Greece) to change to the new permit.[/quote]

............... and if that is the case, it is going to be nigh impossible for elderly people (70 plus) to comply. I suppose a lot will depend on what the UK does to Greek citizens living in the UK. If one could believe it, they will have the same rights as now, even in an no-deal scenario. However, I wouldn't believe a word coming out of UK politicians until it's set in concrete. There could be a sudden rush to sell houses here and get plane tickets back to the UK. That would make the NHS squeal!! Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

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Re: New! Greek Draft law on Brexit

Postby BST » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:05 pm

I specifically asked at a the first meeting in Vrysses if the reciprocal healthcare which state pensioners currently get would be extended into the future as I don't get a state pension until after 2020. The Ambassador said "yes" with the deal but obviously this would be dependant on what the UK does. If that ceases to happen, we will return as we are not paying health insurance for the rest of our lives. Very sad but...

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Re: New! Greek Draft law on Brexit

Postby Keltz » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:13 pm

BST wrote:we will return as we are not paying health insurance for the rest of our lives. Very sad but...


It sometimes helps to look at what is happening over a longer period of time to get some clarity, Instead of reacting to media staged events that mostly lead you down a blind alley and distracts you from the truth.

In 2012 Westminster passed the Health act that removed government responsibility to provide healthcare to UK citizens. When No-Deal Brexit happens on 12th April, the final stage in privatising the NHS can take place with US multinationals able to tender for healthcare contracts without government restrictions. All these older people returning to the UK from Europe with their money from selling up and in need of healthcare make US acquisition of the NHS a very attractive proposition post Brexit as we will then have to take out health insurance in the UK.

Don't tell anyone yet though, as Brexit chaos needs to encourage older people with more disposable income and who generally access more healthcare to relocate to the UK and eventually end up having to buy Boriscare Health Insurance Inc. policies.

Who thought it a good idea to hand sovereignty away from the people government is meant to serve, leaving it in the hands of this self serving Westminster rabble?

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Re: New! Greek Draft law on Brexit

Postby Kilkis » Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:03 am

Carolina wrote:...Also other issues, in the event of no deal, not covered in this bill: ...the use of driving licenses issued by the United Kingdom in Greece. These will be ' regulated by common decisions of the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the competent Minister for each case' .


I did some checking and, as far as I can see, there is no mention of recognition of UK driving licences by EU countries in the Withdrawal Agreement either so that would be a matter for future decision whether there is a deal or no-deal. The UK has said that it will unilaterally recognise EU driving licences after Brexit whatever form it takes.

Put simply, unless something changes, if you want to drive in Greece on a UK licence get an IDP. If you want to drive in the UK on a Greek licence you don't need an IDP.

Warwick

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Re: New! Greek Draft law on Brexit

Postby Carolina » Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:07 pm

Post from the British in Greece group - OVERVIEW OF GREEK DRAFT LAW in case of No Deal Brexit

Copy of British in Greece - overview, no-deal legislation and issues as requested by Jane Golding, chair of the British in Europe Coalition.
BRITISH IN GREECE Julia Cross.
OVERVIEW
According to government statistics there are 24,000 registered UK nationals in Greece but it's estimated there are many more who haven't registered. Greek law states that EU citizens must register after 90 days to get a Registration Certificate, which can be upgraded after proving five years continuous residence to a Permanent Registration Certificate. Registration requirements are easy to meet and I've never heard of anyone being refused, although we do have to provide many people with help for the process.

Two months ago the Greek Minister for Foreign Affairs responded to Jeremy Hunt's request for information with a widely circulated letter confirming that UK nationals resident in Greece are welcome and that their rights will be maintained. The Greek government has its eye on the 80,000 Greeks resident in the UK and the three million British tourists who visit Greece every year therefore reciprocity and maintaining visa free movement is a priority for them. They have set up a Brexit website and fast track no-deal legislation was published on 26/3/2019. However, their website has not as yet been updated with details of the legislation so all we have to work with is their Gazette, which is inevitably written in dense legal language. Nor has an interpretation of the legislation been published anywhere as far as I'm aware.
The British Embassy have been active in organising Outreach meetings across Greece and setting up their own information pages. As a representative of British in Greece, I wrote to the Ambassador a few months ago expressing our concerns at the lack of information from the Greek government for a no-deal situation and received a reply saying they are working with the Greek government at the highest levels to protect our rights. They requested that all correspondence be shared with the British in Greece members. I'm not in contact as yet with the Citizens' Rights Officer but I'm tracking them down.

GREEK NO DEAL LEGISLATION
(caveat - I'm not a lawyer and this is my personal interpretation)
Transition period. In the no-deal legislation we are given a transition period until December 2020 during which free movement and rights of residence will continue for all UK nationals in Greece according to Greek law 106/2007 (A' 135). Neither our entry nor our exit from Greece will be recorded. We will be allowed to apply for a registration certificate as an EU citizen up to this date. In other words we retain our rights as EU citizens in most respects during the transition period (however reciprocal health coverage will lapse after 12/19).

Residence permits. Both kinds of EU residence permits will be valid until December 2020. Two months before December 2020 those with over 5 years legal residence as an EU citizen will apply for a new national residence permit which will be renewed automatically every 5 years allowing us to retain rights similar to those enjoyed by EU citizens. An alternative will be to apply for the long term residence permit for third country nationals as allowed by EU law. Those who haven't reached the five year mark can apply for a three year national permit which will be renewed at three years until they reach the five year mark. This permit will also allow similar rights to an EU citizen. Newcomers (and those of us who haven't registered) will be able to register as EU citizens up until December 2020.
Post transition period. As of January 2021, all UK nationals without residence permits will be subject to Greek immigration laws governing Third Country Nationals (425'/2014 A' 80). Among a whole raft of other restrictions, these include no stays of longer than 90 days in any 180 days. However, UK nationals with the relevant residence permits will retain their free movement into Greece and rights of residence and will NOT have their entry into the country recorded.

POTENTIAL ISSUES

Non-registration. There are an unknown number of UK nationals who haven't registered. Reasons include ignorance of the requirement, procrastination, anxiety about the paperwork, anxiety about residence and tax implications, inability to understand that the law applies to them (I have property / a Greek spouse / pay tax here so I'll be OK), embarrassment because they've put it off so long already, a sense of entitlement (I'm British and the Greeks love me so the rules don't apply to me), a Leaver mentality (nothing will change, it won't affect me, it's Remainer scaremongering) and stupidity (on having the 90 in 180 day rule explained answers I've been travelling through Europe for decades with just my British passport so I won't need a residence permit).

Possible resolution British in Greece members are generally well-informed, as are the members of other more formal sites such as 'BRIG Brits Remain in Greece' and 'Living in Crete', but we're keeping an eye on the more informal FB pages like 'I want to live in Crete' and 'Foreigners living in Greece' to try and reach the unregistered, and many of our recent members have followed our link from these sites. I'm also asking every member to spread the word especially to those UK nationals who might be isolated.

No-deal legislation To acquire the new permanent 5 year permit, the legislation refers to the requirements governing third country nationals. If I am correct this means we will have to show tax returns for the previous 5 years of a yearly income of at least the minimum wage (about 7,800 euros per annum). This means some people are in danger of being refused, especially as we have just been through a massive financial crisis and many UK nationals are scraping by on undeclared, uninsured part time work just like the Greek population. We will also have to prove health insurance and undergo a criminal check but assimilation requirements have been waived. The cards cost 150 euros for a five year one and 900 euros for the 10 year one given to spouses of Greek citizens. We do not know whether we will have to pay, although the pessimistic would say it seems likely as it will be a good revenue stream for a cash strapped Greek government. They say that the cards will be renewed 'automatically' every five years using a specific legal word in Greek (αυτοδίκαια) but I'm not sure what that means in practice. Will we have to provide documentation to renew?

Possible resolution Contacting the CRO at the British Embassy to request legal advice whilst hoping that we won't go to no-deal. Keeping in touch with the admins of other countries to compare their no-deal legislation. Contacting the Greek government directly is not an option because they never reply unless you do it through a personal contact (will explore this if things get really bad).


Health insurance Like all UK nationals there is much anxiety in British in Greece about health insurance especially among UK pensioners and those who have been using the EHIC card as coverage. This concerns not just health care but also providing documentation for residence permits.

Possible resolution Greek emergency legislation from 2016 provides basic health insurance to all uninsured Greek and (legally resident) foreign citizens in order to help ride the worst effects of the financial crisis, which left many people unemployed and without health care. I've shown the members how to access this insurance but it's not a permanent solution as the law could change at any time reverting to medical care only if you pay into the system. Hoping for reciprocal agreements.

British in Greece Facebook Group https://www.facebook.com/groups/313197395758514/

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Re: New! Greek Draft law on Brexit

Postby bobscott » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:55 pm

Thanks for keeping us updated on this Carol. Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

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Re: New! Greek Draft law on Brexit

Postby Carolina » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:26 pm

Gov.gr Brexit website confirms the above law: On 19 March 2019, the Hellenic Parliament approved Law 4604/2019 (published in the Official Government Gazette/ΦΕΚ’ 50/A/26-3-2019) which guarantees, in articles 123, 124, 125, 127 and 128, UK citizens’ rights in Greece after the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union.

Full details here https://brexit.gov.gr/uk-citizens-in-greece/

grana1963
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Re: New! Greek Draft law on Brexit

Postby grana1963 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 7:21 pm

Hi....looking to buy holiday home in the Sissi area. I need a recommended lawyer if someone knows of one.Also what are the rules for visiting 2/3 week periods 3/4 times a year. I have been told from my estate agent to bring certain certificates one of which is a tax residency certificate can anyone enlighten me as to what this is. Any advice regarding buying with a lawyer with the power of attorney and anything that is involved including insuring your property.

Thank you newish to this site


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