Advice on (Pre-Brexit) movement rules

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Kilkis
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Re: Advice on (Pre-Brexit) movement rules

Postby Kilkis » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:59 am

The system to log non EU citizens in and out is the passport, Maud. The Canadian's passport would need to contain a Schengen visa and a Schengen entry stamp. All the passport officer had to do was look at the date on the stamp. No database needed.

I can't speak for all countries but Greece does not record when people from the EU enter or leave the country, Scooby. Think back a few years. What happened when you went through passport control? You handed your passport to the officer he looked at you, looked at the passport and handed it back. How did he record your entry/exit? No such record exists. There is no such database. For people from countries where a visa is required the date of entry and exit is stamped in the passport, often on the same page as the visa. That is the only method of recording. The passport is the record. The current scanning is checking against various lists not recording entry/exit.

In the UK all attempts to record entry/exit data were abandoned by the Blair government in 1998. In 2015 the UK, under the coalition government, did start to make checks again and they claim that they are very effective but personally I have my doubts.

As far as I am aware when they scanned your passport they were checking your name against various lists, e.g. see this press release. You can also see the Directive here. They were not recording your entry/exit.

The only difference between using your Australian or your UK passport is that with the UK passport you don't, at the moment, need a Schengen Visa and the passport would not be stamped with a Schengen entry/exit stamp. With the Australian passport you would need a Schengen visa and the passport would be stamped with a Schengen entry/exit stamp. If you don't get a Schengen exit stamp within 90 days of getting the Schengen entry stamp then that fact would be recorded on the Schengen Information System when you do leave the country and you would have problems entering the Schengen zone in the future, even to a different country. Your name would show up on the Schengen Information System as someone who has previously overstayed a Schengen visa when your passport is scanned at the next entry. The stamps in the passport are the recording mechanism. The Schengen Information System is simply a way of disseminating information on the few who break the rules.

If/when the UK is fully out of the EU and any transition periods have expired, UK citizens will be treated like Australian citizens are now unless they can prove right of residence with some sort of residence document. Initially that might be the existing Registration Certificate but is likely to change to some other form of residence document at some point.

Warwick

Maud
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Re: Advice on (Pre-Brexit) movement rules

Postby Maud » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:21 am

I remember the days when our passports used to get stamped Warwick. I assumed that was how the Canadian was picked up on his 89 days. However this is an interesting one......

When we did our first trip of the year out to Crete in March, we booked return ferry crossings to drive back to the U.K. at the end of June. We crossed from Bari to Patras, then Piraeus to Iraklio. When we arrived in Bari on the way out I was given all four tickets by Fastferry and told that I did not need to check in at Piraeus on the way out to Crete, or in Iraklio on the way back to Piraeus, however I did need to check in at Patras with our passports (as usual) on the way home. - Previously I have had to report to the check in desks before each leg of the journey.......and return tickets usually have to be picked up in Iraklio/Souda and Patras on the way home. We have always had to show our passports when we depart from Patras (Just as we have to show them at Bari/Ancona when we depart from Italy), but we never have to show them anywhere else in Europe, apart from the occasional random check entering Switzerland.

The question is.......why do we have to show them to leave Greece for Italy and vice versa, if they are both Schengen countries? We cannot be doing it to show the shipping line who is on board, as we don’t have to do it to embark on the ‘internal’ ferries any longer! Nobody checks when we enter Italy, France, Belgium Luxembourg etc via land borders. We never need to show them again until we re-enter the U.K. - which is understandable. The system of issuing ferry tickets has improved, which leads me to think that everything else is becoming more ‘joined up’ as well! I have little doubt that our vehicle is now recorded for its length of stay in Greece, as the registration is also recorded on all ferry bookings. I just wonder if more information is ‘stored’ than we are aware of!

Kilkis
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Re: Advice on (Pre-Brexit) movement rules

Postby Kilkis » Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:46 pm

Who are you showing them to, Maud? I last used a Greek - Italy crossing in summer 2000 by which time both Greece and Italy were part of Schengen. I am pretty sure I had to show my passport in both directions. Was this an immigration control, which shouldn't have been necessary, or an identity check by the shipping line, i.e. am I really the person named on the ticket? Certainly no records were kept, just a glance and handed back.

I have no idea what information governments store on me. Perhaps they are tracking my every movement every second of the day and storing it all in some vast database in the cloud. I only know what the Schengen system currently used at Greek ports does officially. That is to check the passport against a variety of lists including the SIS database and various wanted lists such as red notices. The UK government is now collecting passenger information from many, but not all, airlines and storing it. That does give them a better but still imperfect picture of who enters and leaves the country and when. That system only started in 2015.

Warwick

Maud
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Re: Advice on (Pre-Brexit) movement rules

Postby Maud » Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:27 pm

We show our passports at the booking desk at the ferry terminal Warwick. - Not passport control.....which we do when leaving the U.K. at Folkestone, or on the way home at Calais. We are sometimes asked to do it entering and leaving Switzerland as well....by the Swiss Border Control.

It can’t be to ensure we are the people named on the ferry tickets. That is obviously checked when they hand all four tickets over to us in Bari/Ancona. If the ferry company thinks we might have swopped the tickets with someone else, why do we not have to show our passports each time we board a ferry?

As Greece and Italy are both in Schengen, we should not need to show our passports....as you have pointed out. Even if a cursory glance is given to them, the ferry company has all of your details, including your vehicle details, so I am sure it is easy for everything to become ‘joined up.’- In all honesty it is only a cursory glance when we board the train in Folkestone or at Calais.

1 assume the ferry company is ‘doubling up’ as some sort of passport control? Maybe if we were from outside if the EU we would get directed to another building to get our passports stamped.

Kilkis
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Re: Advice on (Pre-Brexit) movement rules

Postby Kilkis » Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:42 am

If you fly back to the UK, say from Chania, you show your passport to the clerk at the desk where you check your luggage. You show it again to a border official when you go through passport control. You show it again to an airline official when you enter the departure gate. You show it again to an airline official, usually the same one, when you leave the departure gate to get on the bus out to the plane. If it was from Athens the last one would be when you go down the ramp to the plane. Apart from the border official these are all just identity checks by the airline.

I will fly from Chania to Bordeaux later this summer and I will go through the same set of passport checks, except the one by the border official, because both Greece and France are in Schengen.

All you are experiencing is the shipping line equivalent of the airline's identity checks. They have done it for years. It is nothing new and, as far as I know, it is nothing to do with tightening controls on when you enter or leave the country.

It is quite possible that for people who need a Schengen visa their details are entered into the Schengen Information System when the visa is issued. Those details would then be checked when the passport is scanned. I can neither confirm nor deny that.

Warwick

Maud
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Re: Advice on (Pre-Brexit) movement rules

Postby Maud » Sun Jul 21, 2019 1:17 am

Thanks for that Warwick. I am sure you are correct. It just seems odd that when so many checks are done at airports, we only have to show our passports twice out of four ferry trips! Why do the shipping lines not do identity checks on all sailings? I am not complaining.....just puzzled! I appreciate that in both occasions I am moving out of one country in to another, but both are in Schengen, and obviously I don’t have to show passport to cross from France to Belgium, Luxembourg, Italy etc!

Kilkis
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Re: Advice on (Pre-Brexit) movement rules

Postby Kilkis » Sun Jul 21, 2019 11:27 am

I haven't done a ferry journey inside Greece since 2010 or between Greece and Italy since 2000, Maud, so I have difficulty remembering exactly what happened on those crossings. It is not something I paid particular attention to but my recollection is that, when boarding the ferry, at the top of the long stairs there was a gate with a couple of ferry personnel and that they checked both my ticket and my passport. This was on both internal and external routes. I could be wrong. Certainly no recording of information.

I think the logic in all cases, i.e. both airlines and ferry lines, is to check if it is really your ticket. For example somebody could have mugged you and stolen the ticket. The ticket has your name on it but no photo so anybody could present that ticket pretending to be you. Your passport/ID card has both your photo and your name. The name ties the the ticket to the passport and checking your face against the photo ties the passport to the person. Combine the two and you tie the ticket to the person. If they just check the ticket or just check the passport there is no firm link between the person and the ticket. Again I could be wrong. I think making that strong link is much higher priority to airlines than to ferry lines so they do more checking.

Supermarkets used to do it if you paid over €100 by card but seem to have stopped now. Someone could have stolen the card and found out the pin. Again the card has your name but no photo. Asking to see your passport establishes the same strong link between the person and the card.

Warwick

Maud
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Re: Advice on (Pre-Brexit) movement rules

Postby Maud » Sun Jul 21, 2019 5:49 pm

Absolutely Warwick.

The thing here is.......nobody checked our passports on either crossing from Piraeus to Crete and back. - We just handed out our tickets to a ship’s officer (through the vehicle window) as we drove up the ramp each time. We could have been anyone!

On the two occasions we had to show our passports, (Bari and Patras), we did that in a building well away from the ship and a couple,of hours before we were allowed to board! Our tickets for all four ‘legs’ of the journey were handed out in Bari, (so the lady on the desk at the terminal would have seen our passports), but in Patras on the way home nobody wanted to see our tickets.....just the passports! The tickets were not checked until we boarded the ship. (Once again as we drove up the ramp). Nobody looked at our passports there! There was never any correlation between ticket checking and passport checking! It all seems rather bizarre!

I only mention all of this, as the thought of the 90 day rule being imposed is yet another headache!

Kilkis
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Re: Advice on (Pre-Brexit) movement rules

Postby Kilkis » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:06 pm

Again my brain may be deceiving me but my memory of Chania to Piraeus and back was that, as we drove onto the ferry, the officer asked to see all three tickets, i.e. car plus passengers, but only kept the car one. He did not ask for our passports. It was when we went up the stairs to the passenger entrance that we had to give the passenger tickets and show our passports. I think Greek passengers were showing ID cards.

I haven't used Patras since 1993 so I cannot remember what happened there. I agree that at Bari/Brindisi, can't remember which, you had to leave the car outside the gates in a very busy street with nowhere to park and go to an office on the first floor of a wooden building and both tickets, which we had bought at an office coming into the town, and passports were checked there.

Obviously Greece has a fully developed system for dealing with extra Schengen citizens but we don't experience it so I have no idea how it works, except the general principles.

Warwick

Kamisiana
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Re: Advice on (Pre-Brexit) movement rules

Postby Kamisiana » Sun Jul 21, 2019 6:12 pm

Maud wrote:Absolutely Warwick.

I only mention all of this, as the thought of the 90 day rule being imposed is yet another headache!


C'est la vie :cry:

Maud
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Re: Advice on (Pre-Brexit) movement rules

Postby Maud » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:09 pm

It has all changed over recent years Warwick.

Now on the ‘internal’ ferries, if you have a vehicle, a nice person standing at the start of the ramp inspects all three tickets as you drive on. He rips them in half, hands the other half back to you....and that is it! - No further inspection as you go up to the main area of the ship......unless you are a foot passenger. - Their tickets get inspected there.

In Bari there is a very large modern building, on the dockside. You can park outside but it is not a huge area. You go in to the building, show your passport, collect all 12 tickets......3 for each sailing..... and you do not need to show your passport again until you leave Patras on the way back to Bari.

At Bari/Ancona, Piraeus, Iraklio/Hania and Patras you always do the same thing when boarding the ship. - Show your tickets to someone at the bottom of the ramp.......but not anywhere else once you are on the ship. You only show your passport in Bari/Ancona when you pick the tickets up from the shipping office. In Bari/Ancona, they remind you that you will need to go to their office in Patras on your return journey to show your passport, but they also tell you you don’t need to go to their offices in Piraeus, or on Crete.

It is all rather ‘laid back’ in comparison to taking a flight! I am sure that someone, somewhere, is keeping track of us though!

Kilkis
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Re: Advice on (Pre-Brexit) movement rules

Postby Kilkis » Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:28 pm

In the spirit of Kamisiana's post: "Plus ça change plus c'est la même chose".

Warwick

Maud
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Re: Advice on (Pre-Brexit) movement rules

Postby Maud » Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:13 pm

You could be a modern day Karr Warwick!

Kilkis
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Re: Advice on (Pre-Brexit) movement rules

Postby Kilkis » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:12 am

I doubt it, Maud. I have little imagination and hence few original ideas. My strength is purely in being able to prise information out of data, which is what I have done, one way or another, all my working life. I thought I also had skill in presenting that information to others in an understandable form, which I also spent a considerable part of my working life doing, but I am beginning to doubt that skill judging by how many times I am misunderstood on this forum.

Warwick

Carolina
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Re: Advice on (Pre-Brexit) movement rules

Postby Carolina » Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:23 pm

I travelled to the UK last month. My passport was run through a computer at Chania airport. Same on the way back into Chania, arriving on a flight from the UK there was a bit of a wait as border control police checked everyone's passport on a computer database.

Checks were tightened up in April this year https://www.aia.gr/traveler/travellers- ... t-control/

So assume the info is now stored on a database for whenever we enter and leave Greece? (As well as the UK?).


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