I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

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Toebs
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I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Toebs » Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:37 am

Yesterday the Telegraph claimed a poll it commissioned with ComRes showed 54% of people were in favour of Mr. Johnson proroguing Parliament so Brexit could happen.

I smelled a rat.

I then thought about it, and it seemed obviously wrong - 48% of people voted Remain, that number has risen both due to time and due to the soft-Brexit people going to hard to Remain. 54% made no sense.

I went to ComRes site, they publish all their surveys, to read the survey method and so on.

It hadn't been published (I've not checked again yet).

I emailed them. No reply yet.

Then this turned up from fullfact.org;

https://fullfact.org/europe/telegraph-s ... arliament/

I quote their investigation;

“Do you agree or disagree with the following statements?

“Boris needs to deliver Brexit by any means, including suspending parliament if necessary, in order to prevent MPs from stopping it.”

44% agreed, 37% disagreed and 19% said they didn’t know.

44% does not, as the Telegraph claims, represent more than half of the public.

The Telegraph excluded all the people who said they didn’t know from its reported findings in order to claim that a majority of the public (54%) agreed. This isn’t appropriate.


They then go on to point out it's a leading question.

I've said it before - there is a significant tendency for the people in favour of Leave to be perfectly happy to deny freedom, by deception or by force, to others.

YoMo2
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby YoMo2 » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:32 am

Toebs wrote:.......I've said it before - there is a significant tendency for the people in favour of Leave to be perfectly happy to deny freedom, by deception or by force, to others.


Of course, that doesn't also apply in any way to Remainers?

As has been pointed out here before, it's a highly polarised debate, and the extremists on both sides are perfectly happy to lie and manipluate.

Andrew

Kamisiana
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Kamisiana » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:42 am

Toebs wrote:Yesterday the Telegraph claimed a poll it commissioned with ComRes showed 54% of people were in favour of Mr. Johnson proroguing Parliament so Brexit could happen.

I smelled a rat.

I then thought about it, and it seemed obviously wrong - 48% of people voted Remain, that number has risen both due to time and due to the soft-Brexit people going to hard to Remain. 54% made no sense.

I went to ComRes site, they publish all their surveys, to read the survey method and so on.

It hadn't been published (I've not checked again yet).

I emailed them. No reply yet.

Then this turned up from fullfact.org;

https://fullfact.org/europe/telegraph-s ... arliament/

I quote their investigation;

“Do you agree or disagree with the following statements?

“Boris needs to deliver Brexit by any means, including suspending parliament if necessary, in order to prevent MPs from stopping it.”

44% agreed, 37% disagreed and 19% said they didn’t know.

44% does not, as the Telegraph claims, represent more than half of the public.

The Telegraph excluded all the people who said they didn’t know from its reported findings in order to claim that a majority of the public (54%) agreed. This isn’t appropriate.


They then go on to point out it's a leading question.

I've said it before - there is a significant tendency for the people in favour of Leave to be perfectly happy to deny freedom, by deception or by force, to others.



And what does this have to do with living in Crete,
Carolina can we turn this thread into the new WILL OF THE PEOPLE thread please RSVP.

Kilkis
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Kilkis » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:29 am

I think whether the UK leaves with a deal or without a deal is very much of interest to people living in Crete. With a deal, like May's deal, we know our rights are protected. With no deal we don't know. You might consider that difference insignificant but many others don't. You might not care whether you will be able to continue to live in Crete but others do. Proroguing Parliament is a proposed mechanism to ensure that we leave without a deal hence comments on the poll are relevant.

People are too eager to make all embracing statements without any evidence.

For example, "Leaving without a deal will be a catastrophe". This is not a very accurate description. I am old enough to have lived through several recessions in the UK. In one recession I was made redundant at a time when jobs were hard to find and I had a family and mortgage to support. That could have been catastrophic but I was lucky enough to find another job. In another recession I was trying to move house just when the bottom fell out of the market. That was pretty unpleasant but I dealt with it simply by living in digs during the week and going home at weekend until the market recovered. All other recessions had no real effect on me. Leaving without a deal will be similar. It won't be a case of everybody suffering a little bit. For some people it will be catastrophic and for others it will have no effect.

Remainers say that no-deal wasn't on the table during the referendum so it doesn't have the support of the people while leavers say we voted to leave so we have to leave by whatever means. They are both wrong. Leaving without a deal was raised by the remain campaign as, "This is what could happen if you vote to leave", dismissed as project fear. The leave campaign said that there was absolutely no possibility of leaving without a deal and the UK would be able to trade with the EU on exactly the same terms as being a member. They went further and said the EU would have to do this or they would lose more than the UK. Boris is either still basing his strategy on that idea or he really wants no-deal. Some people in the middle of Europhobic - Europhilic spectrum were not sure how to vote. Some were convinced by the arguments of the leave campaign and some by the arguments of the remain campaign, the former a bit more than the latter. You cannot argue that those who were persuaded by the leave campaign were voting for no-deal when the leave campaign said the exact opposite.

There is considerable controversy whether people have shifted position from leave to remain. I personally don't know any leaves voter that have changed their position or any remain voters that have changed theirs.

The whole debate is plagued with arguments that have no basis in reality or in logic.

Warwick

Maud
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Maud » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:35 am

Your post says it all Toebs.

“Yesterday the Telegraph claims a poll it commissioned......”

I read the report as well, and like yourself I dug further and found the same fullfat.org article as you. Not only were the numbers misrepresentative of the true results, but the ‘structure’ of the question was appalling. It had three parts to it.
The first part is virtually a statement, telling people Boris needs to bring about Brexit by any means. (It is subconsciously telling people that Brexit needs to be done).
The second part is suggesting that suspending Parliament is acceptable to do this. (Therefore putting this idea in the minds of the people being questioned)
Thirdly it is demonising MP’s as the ‘bad people’. (A Telegraph ploy when it cannot get its own way!)

Anyone who knows anything about designing a questionnaire would see through the ComRes one straight away!

I think we are all fed up with inaccurate ‘facts’ and reporting, - whichever way we voted in the referendum. It is very disappointing to see such distorted reporting still taking place after three years. Worse still, it is worrying that our elected representatives, (MP’s) are being portrayed as enemies of the people, and not carrying out the ‘people’s will’. - Remember that many MP’s had constituencies that voted to remain, and all they are doing is supporting the views of their own voters. These voters might now accept the referendum result, but they certainly want an exit from the EU that is organised, and not one that drops off a cliff edge. (Many leave voters want the same).

What polls like this are designed to do is to put people in one of two camps......the remainers or the leavers. This poll was intended to show that people just want Brexit......whatever the outcome for the future. It was all about ‘Brexit means Brexit’ again, and it is trying to draw attention away from the problems it will cause. It is stirring up ‘nationalism’ again.

Of course Brexit affects people living in Crete. Most have families still in the U.K. Most have an income, (in the form of a pension), that is based in the U.K. and therefore subject to currency fluctuation.......and the worrying devaluation of the £ against the €. Many had a vote in the referendum, therefore they had a ‘say’ in the matter, and as such should be interested in its outcome! - Not everyone lives in a bubble.

Carolina
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Carolina » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:02 pm

Maud wrote:
Of course Brexit affects people living in Crete. Most have families still in the U.K. Most have an income, (in the form of a pension), that is based in the U.K. and therefore subject to currency fluctuation.......and the worrying devaluation of the £ against the €. Many had a vote in the referendum, therefore they had a ‘say’ in the matter, and as such should be interested in its outcome! - Not everyone lives in a bubble.


Many of us didn't get a say in the referendum (too long out of the UK), on something which profoundly and immediately affects us (British in Europe) more than most.

Let's also not forget all the workers Maud! Many are still working here in Crete. Our rights and future pensions co-ordination will be affected. Businesses and movement of goods/services UK to Greece will also be affected.

I also work with British residents who work here in Crete for 6 to 8 months a year and are contracted with UK Tour Operators seasonally (reps, office staff) and we have no idea what will be put in place re work visas for them. The British Consul told me that the big Tour Operators (TUI etc) have raised this question with them from the beginning but there are no answers yet. Obviously Greece wants and needs its tourism, but will have to abide by certain Schengen rules regarding longer stay non-EU workers etc so it won' t simply be able to unilaterally make it easy for certain sector workers.

Carolina
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Carolina » Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:14 pm

Kamisiana wrote:
And what does this have to do with living in Crete,
Carolina can we turn this thread into the new WILL OF THE PEOPLE thread please RSVP.


Agreed that the OP is not about Living in Crete, Kamisiana.

I have added a Crete-related comment though :)

Looking at amalgamating all these general BR comments threads to form the next long running thread markII (there you go Toebs!).

Need to find some quiet spare time to do this though and I may end up deleteing half of them by mistake (seriously, by mistake)..

Maud
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Maud » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:26 pm

I didn’t comment on ‘the workers’ Carolina, as I saw that as a ‘given.’ We all know the problems involved there.

I am also aware that not everyone living on Crete got a vote in the referendum. - Warwick, (amongst others), stated how he he did not have a vote.....which is why I used the word ‘many.’

My comment was In reference to the one Toebs made about smelling a rat.’. - I felt Kamisiana had not made any ‘connection.’ Surely the devaluation of the £ alone affects people living on Crete, even if they are not concerned about the outcome of Brexit. - The two are inextricably connected!

As for U.K. people working in the EU, the whole matter is a nightmare. I cannot even contemplate how they feel living through all this uncertainty. When the referendum took place everyone was told that ‘nothing would change.’ - It was obvious it would! The U.K. could not ‘cherry pick’ the bits it wanted from any future agreement. Sadly, the people who are probably most affected by all of this are the ones who voted to stay in the EU anyway!

Carolina
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Carolina » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:40 pm

Maud wrote:I didn’t comment on ‘the workers’ Carolina, as I saw that as a ‘given.’ We all know the problems involved there.

I am also aware that not everyone living on Crete got a vote in the referendum. - Warwick, (amongst others), stated how he he did not have a vote.....which is why I used the word ‘many.’

My comment was In reference to the one Toebs made about smelling a rat.’. - I felt Kamisiana had not made any ‘connection.’ Surely the devaluation of the £ alone affects people living on Crete, even if they are not concerned about the outcome of Brexit. - The two are inextricably connected!

As for U.K. people working in the EU, the whole matter is a nightmare. I cannot even contemplate how they feel living through all this uncertainty. When the referendum took place everyone was told that ‘nothing would change.’ - It was obvious it would! The U.K. could not ‘cherry pick’ the bits it wanted from any future agreement. Sadly, the people who are probably most affected by all of this are the ones who voted to stay in the EU anyway!


I'm just giving the workers a mention Maud as they are not often/hardly ever mentioned (different demographics here on the forum).
None of my long term British friends & aquaintances here in Crete got to vote in the referendum.. and following Facebook groups about British in Greece there are just so many of us who couldn't vote (not to mention those living in the rest of Europe).

Also, the people who could vote and are most affected by this did not all vote to remain! Just look at the posts on this forum!

Guy M
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Guy M » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:42 pm

I agree Maud. I know people who have lived in Crete for over a decade, who um’d and ah’d about how to vote in the referendum and have been hammered by the fall in the value of the £ and may not have a job in 6 months’ time. Given the potential chaos in the UK, these will be amongst the forgotten by the UK government. Worrying times.

Kamisiana
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Kamisiana » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:01 pm

I have lived here over a decade no um,ing or ah,ing voted leave would will vote leave again,
said it before saying it again 95% of members on this forum it's only self interest all the post
prove it, put all your UK money in the Greek banks support the country you live in as you don't
have a good word for your country of your birth.

altohb
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby altohb » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:15 pm

Kamisiana wrote:I have lived here over a decade no um,ing or ah,ing voted leave would will vote leave again,
said it before saying it again 95% of members on this forum it's only self interest all the post
prove it, put all your UK money in the Greek banks support the country you live in as you don't
have a good word for your country of your birth.


I think you are wrong in your analysis of the numbers, Kamisiana - of the people I know in this neck of the woods many are working (as per Carolina's post) and were disenfranchised; of those who are permanent residents some are disenfranchised, and of the remainder I would guess roughly a 50/50 split remain/leave - of those who actually voted! We've been here nearly 13 years. Most permanent residents I know are tax payers here. I can't say how much capital people keep here - none of my business; everyone does what is right for them at the time.

Maud
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Maud » Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:38 pm

I have read the previous posts on here about members voting for Brexit Carolina. - I am well aware than some people choose to live on Crete, yet are anti EU enough to vote for Brexit. I cannot see any logic in that.

I also feel strongly that if they choose to no longer live in the U.K. and instead wish to live in the EU, they should not vote to stop residents of the U.K. being part of the EU! - It should not matter where people pay their taxes!

I have seen Alberto Costa, (MP for South Leicestershire) interviewed twice on different news channels today. He has been actively been trying to bring the issue of EU people living and working in the U.K. and U.K. people living and working in the EU to the forefront of the Brexit issue. He says that one point three million British people live and work in the EU. If we crash out of Brexit on 31st October, all of their entitlements disappear overnight. (The same for the three and a half EU citizens in the U.K.). He has written yet another letter to Johnson today (with 19 other MP’s) to flag up such problems.

Of course, this will be seen as scaremongering by some. They will say ‘negotiations’ are already underway with individual countries. I pose this question though. - How much has been already signed? - If a British citizen on Crete has a heart attack on the 1st November, will they get free hospital care?

Guy M
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Guy M » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:02 pm

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm6Id3Qt8Wk

If we stick together we are stronger, if we separate we are weaker and we may go in the bin.

Kilkis
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Kilkis » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:15 pm

Kamisiana wrote:I have lived here over a decade no um,ing or ah,ing voted leave would will vote leave again,...


Since your right to live in Crete depends on the UK being a member of the EU, Kamisiana, and you think the UK should leave the EU why don't you act on your voting position, leave Crete and go back to the UK? That is not a suggestion but a genuine question. How can you justify having the right to live in Crete and the belief that the UK should leave the EU? Since you obviously hate the EU why do you choose to live in it?

My vote, if I had been allowed to have one, would not have been based solely on self interest. I have read all the treaties and a large number of the regulations and directives, especially the ones that directly affect me. The way they are portrayed in the UK media bears no relationship to what they contain. Most of the problems that have arisen in the UK are either not due to being a member of the EU at all, i.e. the left behind, or are directly due to decisions taken by UK governments. I would have voted remain because, in my judgement, the UK is better off inside the EU rather than outside it. I also recognised that a lot of the leave campaign's arguments were outright lies while those of the remain campaign were mostly stupid speculation. That analysis has proved to be remarkably accurate so far.

I do support the country that I live in. I declare all my income in Greece and pay tax on it in Greece. I pay in full and on time and have done so for over 20 years. Do you? I put any savings I have where I think they will be safest and often get it wrong. That includes Greece, the UK, Switzerland and Singapore. At my time of life return OF capital is more important than return ON capital. My strategy would be the same if I was living in the UK.

I have made no complaints about my country of birth. I could happily live in the UK or in Greece. At present I prefer to live in Greece but perhaps one day I will prefer to live in the UK. I never anticipated any of my previous moves so I have no idea what will happen in the future. In both cases I try to point out what is wrong in both countries on an objective basis, something that is sadly lacking in a lot of arguments.

Warwick


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