I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

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scooby

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby scooby » Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:43 pm

I must say the difference between the last cabinet and prime minister to this one is chalk and cheese because they actually believe the UK will be better out. Yes it was a bit of a shock for people and mp’s that Johnson went at it like a bull in a china shop but it was necessary to focus minds, Cummings created the chaos and doubts to allow Johnson to push through. Add to that Johnson appointed a head negotiator with a far superior CV to the last one.

scooby

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby scooby » Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:01 pm

Here’s a liberal “democrat” who doesn’t even know why she is even voting against the deal. Honestly you couldn’t make it up.

https://apple.news/ADvI--WEpRzSZHBhZG4m-TA

Toebs
Posts: 277
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:42 pm

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Toebs » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:27 am

It's nice to see you back, scootby.

Separately, I observe you seem to be the parallel-universe-scooby-with-a-moustash!

You seem unusually angry.

Toebs
Posts: 277
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:42 pm

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Toebs » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:35 am

> I must say the difference between the last cabinet and prime minister to this one is chalk and cheese because they actually believe the UK will be better out.

I may be wrong, but I'm not sure about that.

I think you believe it, and you think they believe it.

I suspect Johnson rode Brexit to get into power.

He's a politician. I don't trust them, and you don't trust them. Why do you trust these ones? they're not going to be any different.

> Yes it was a bit of a shock for people and mp’s that Johnson went at it like a bull in a china shop but it was necessary to focus minds, Cummings created the chaos and doubts to allow Johnson to push through.

I'm sorry to say this to you, scooby, but this to me has the feeling of religion : there's an article of faith, and all information is interprented in whatever ways are needed to ensure the article of faith remains true.

"Dinosaurs? God put them there to test our faith."

Everything Johnson et al have done or are doing is being seen as part of a master plan, and almost always having been the correct thing to do.

It just isn't true. They're normal people, doing what they do, blundering at times like all of us.

I have to point out Johnson has *not* pushed through. Parliament said no. Johnson has not yet solved the problems which bedevilled his predecessors. He has also permanently alienated the soft-exit/remain camp, by proroguration, and now this ridiculous, embarrassing two-letter response to the law.

> Add to that Johnson appointed a head negotiator with a far superior CV to the last one.

I may be wrong, but I don't think this is a factor. What's happened is Johnson has given up certain things which May would not, which is to say, NI.

May was bound by the DUP, for her majority, and Johnson has given up having a majority, which seems to me to place him much further away from success in Parliament.

scooby

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby scooby » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:15 pm

Toebs wrote:> I must say the difference between the last cabinet and prime minister to this one is chalk and cheese because they actually believe the UK will be better out.

I may be wrong, but I'm not sure about that.

I think you believe it, and you think they believe it.

I suspect Johnson rode Brexit to get into power.

He's a politician. I don't trust them, and you don't trust them. Why do you trust these ones? they're not going to be any different.

> Yes it was a bit of a shock for people and mp’s that Johnson went at it like a bull in a china shop but it was necessary to focus minds, Cummings created the chaos and doubts to allow Johnson to push through.

I'm sorry to say this to you, scooby, but this to me has the feeling of religion : there's an article of faith, and all information is interprented in whatever ways are needed to ensure the article of faith remains true.

"Dinosaurs? God put them there to test our faith."

Everything Johnson et al have done or are doing is being seen as part of a master plan, and almost always having been the correct thing to do.

It just isn't true. They're normal people, doing what they do, blundering at times like all of us.

I have to point out Johnson has *not* pushed through. Parliament said no. Johnson has not yet solved the problems which bedevilled his predecessors. He has also permanently alienated the soft-exit/remain camp, by proroguration, and now this ridiculous, embarrassing two-letter response to the law.

> Add to that Johnson appointed a head negotiator with a far superior CV to the last one.

I may be wrong, but I don't think this is a factor. What's happened is Johnson has given up certain things which May would not, which is to say, NI.

May was bound by the DUP, for her majority, and Johnson has given up having a majority, which seems to me to place him much further away from success in Parliament.
First of all I will make one thing clear, I am not angry at all, I suppose that's the problem with forum platforms, emails, texts etc in the fact things can be taken the wrong way or blown up out of proportion. On the contrary I am quite relaxed although a little frustrated as the attempts to overthrow a democratic vote are pushed to the limit.
It's not a case of trusting one set of politicians over another set. When I look back at the way Theresa May and her cabinet went about the negotiations it just seemed all to very nicey softly softly and it ended up with a deal that had no hope of getting through. Of course Johnson rode Brexit to get power but that's not the point.
Regarding Johnson pushing through, what I am trying to say is he is right when he says the situation can't carry on i.e delay after delay and he is trying to box parliament into making a decision. Let's face it, parliament has said no to every situation put forward on indicative votes, apart from the Brady amendment. We all know that a majority in parliament couldn't make a decision to save their lives hence why they want it to go back to the people so they can shun their responsibilities. A second referendum will solve nothing and would probably make the situation worse, an election might solve it but I doubt it. What these mp's seem to forget is Nigel Farage is waiting, chomping at the bit to have another go. He has been underestimated before. I see what you are saying about the prorogation etc.. but it seems to me it's OK for mp's to frustrate Brexit but it's not OK to frustrate the remain camp?
Finally the negotiating team headed by David frost compared to Olly Robins. Please feel free to check the backgrounds of both. Frost has far more experience. I have never heard Barnier praise the negotiating team like he did recently when he said they were competent and professional.
At Oxford, Robbins was president of the Oxford Reform Club, a group promoting a federal European Union. He took up the Heywood Fellowship at the Blavatnik School of Government in September 2019, after which he will join Goldman Sachs as a managing director in the bank's investment banking division. I close my case on him and I presume you would offer no defence.

Kilkis
Posts: 11083
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Location: Near Chania

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Kilkis » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:04 pm

You should try to post links to the original articles, Scooby, rather than links to Apple news feeds. I for one cannot view them so the point is lost.

Johnson hasn't really achieved anything. This idea of being a strong negotiator and using no-deal as leverage is a complete myth. He has simply gone back to what the EU originally proposed as a solution to the Irish border issue, i.e. keeping Northern Ireland in the EU single market and customs union. It is the solution that May said "No UK Prime Minister would ever agree to". That is why the DUP voted against it. He and his supporters couldn't care less about NI, a point of view they might come to regret.

The Letwin amendment was proposed because nobody trusts Johnson. He is the most duplicitous PM since Harold Wilson. His " cunning plan" was quite transparent. Pass the new deal through Parliament and the Cherry-Benn Act becomes void and there is nothing to force him to ask for an extension. Then mess about with the implementing legislation until 1 November and voila the UK is out of the EU without an agreement. Exactly what he and his supporters want. It also pulls the fangs of the Brexit Party at the next election because he has achieved what they were promising to do.

Warwick

SueA
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 1:13 pm
Location: Crete

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby SueA » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:11 pm

Scooby might not be angry but I am, and so is the person who wrote this very long post. Shared from a private Facebook group, with permission.

It's amazing how the press goes on all the time about how angry the people are that Brexit hasn't yet "got done". Remainers like me aren't allowed to be angry although we have a great deal to be angry about.
Just to list 12 of the reasons for anger which have occurred to me in the last few minutes:
1. We, as UK citizens, are being stripped of our European citizenship against our will. How disgusting it is that many Brexiters are acquiring Irish passports to immunise themselves from the effects of their own decision!
2. We second-class UK citizens (i.e. those who have a right only to a UK passport) will lose our right and opportunity to live and work in 30 other countries (EU and EEA countries), and will pretty much be trapped in this country forever. Not so bad, perhaps, for the elderly or middle-aged, but what about our young people who will lose so many of the opportunities their parents have had?
3. Many in this country will lose their jobs, our economy will decline, the nation will be poorer, and public services will have less money. We will all suffer, and yet so many of us will be trapped here.
4. The Nobel Peace Prize-winning European Union has been the mainstay of peace and co-operation on our continent, which prior to the EU was pretty much constantly war-torn throughout its history. We should remain and support the peace-keepers.
5. The 2016 EU referendum was full of lies, not least the one on the bus. An impoverished economy will have less money for the NHS.
6. The deal currently envisaged bears little resemblance to what was promised by the Brexiters in the referendum campaign, so why should the vote still be valid without even having a confirmatory vote?
7. The British press is known to be the most vile and toxic "free press" in the western world. Certain newspapers and their lies have turned much of this country from a people which were content with our EU membership a decade ago into a frothing anti-EU mob now. No wonder the EU say, "We don't understand England". I don't understand England either!
8. And it is England that is the problem. The Scots and the Northern Irish wanted to remain, and both have now been shafted. The break-up of the United Kingdom looks more and more likely. And who could blame the Scots for leaving? They were told in the Scottish Independence referendum that a vote to leave the UK would also mean they would be forced out of the EU. Now it's remaining in the UK that would force them out of the EU. This is an absolute betrayal of the Scots.
9. What the Brexiters have achieved, of course with the help of the poisonous press, is to blame the EU for the disadvantage felt by many areas of this country. The EU has been been made the scapegoat, whilst the fault actually lies with the lack of investment in the regions by British governments in our London-centric economy. And indeed, it is only EU money in Cornwall, Wales and many other areas which has kept them going at all. No wonder they are really worried now.
10. Our government claims to be environmentally friendly and to want to reduce our carbon emissions. How do you do that when you dramatically reduce trade with your neighbours in order to ship far more to and from countries on the other side of the planet? This is the opposite of joined-up thinking.
11. The 48% have been totally dismissed and ignored with every utterance of the words "will of the people". The 48% are the people too! And let's not forget that 3 million EU citizens live in this country, and, despite many paying taxes here for decades, were denied the right to vote. They have now spent 3 years worrying about their livelihoods in the country in which they have invested their lives, as have the 1.5 million Brits living in EU countries. This is unforgivable.
12. Did the Brexiters spare a thought for peoples of any other countries when they voted to leave? Did they consider the damage to the jobs and economies of Ireland, of Holland or of any other countries? Did they consider the impact on peace in Northern Ireland, even when Theresa May, Tony Blair and John Major all warned about this prior to the referendum?

Polls suggest that this country now supports Remain. If Brexiters believe otherwise, they need to prove it. Put the actual deal (not just any notion of Leave that people fancy) to a confirmatory referendum set against Remain, and just see if you really have the support of the people!

scooby

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby scooby » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:37 pm

Kilkis wrote:You should try to post links to the original articles, Scooby, rather than links to Apple news feeds. I for one cannot view them so the point is lost.


Warwick
An apple iphone switches the article to apple news when you save or copy the story. I am now on my pc so here is the link.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXgV6BY2qWY

scooby

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby scooby » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:46 pm

Kilkis wrote:Johnson hasn't really achieved anything. This idea of being a strong negotiator and using no-deal as leverage is a complete myth. He has simply gone back to what the EU originally proposed as a solution to the Irish border issue, i.e. keeping Northern Ireland in the EU single market and customs union. It is the solution that May said "No UK Prime Minister would ever agree to". That is why the DUP voted against it. He and his supporters couldn't care less about NI, a point of view they might come to regret.

The Letwin amendment was proposed because nobody trusts Johnson. He is the most duplicitous PM since Harold Wilson. His " cunning plan" was quite transparent. Pass the new deal through Parliament and the Cherry-Benn Act becomes void and there is nothing to force him to ask for an extension. Then mess about with the implementing legislation until 1 November and voila the UK is out of the EU without an agreement. Exactly what he and his supporters want. It also pulls the fangs of the Brexit Party at the next election because he has achieved what they were promising to do.

Warwick
You are right he hasn't achieved anything, only what most people who don't want Brexit said was impossible.
It's not about him being a strong negotiator and not sure I have said that. What he does best is surrounding himself with like minded people who get the job done. David Frost was a great addition.
I have nothing against the Letwin amendment. You assumed that I was probably talking about that when I said I was frustrated at the attempts to stop the democratic vote being overturned but I wasn't. It's a sensible amendment, and as Letwin said himself it's not about trust it's about stopping any mistakes that could lead to a no deal, although I find your conspiracy theory amusing.

Keltz
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:53 am

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Keltz » Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:18 am

scooby wrote: What he does best is surrounding himself with like minded people who get the job done.


It is not about the process it is about the effect on British people's lives that those in support of Brexit will not discuss. Sue's post above gives a clear understanding of known issues with Brexit yet you ignore these facts and are fully behind a PM that refuses to disclose the economic impact of Brexit on people's lives and refuses to give people a vote on the reality of Brexit which would require that reality to be published. There is your conspiracy right there and you are defending it. No joke. Welcome back.

scooby

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby scooby » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:57 am

General Election it is then.

scooby

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby scooby » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:22 pm

Why am I not surprised that no one wished to comment on the clip I posted. This is an MEP that looks after the UK’s interest in Brussels or supposedly. Wow.

Guy M
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Location: Kalamitsi Alexandrou

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Guy M » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:05 pm

This is how I see this and the many threads all over social media on the Brexit topic. May, or more probably may not, help.

An important, little articulated, facet of U.K. politics is the switch from evidence-based argument to emotions-based argument since around 2015. Those stuck in the former way of arguing are unable to refute those in the latter: ‘just get it done’ has more weight as an emotional argument than ‘there may be a reduction in environmental standards according to subclause x of the Withdrawal Agreement’, for example.

The logical conclusion of this change is that to appeal to voters, a politician doesn’t need arguments supported by facts; rather they need charisma. Hence ‘we have had enough of experts’ (M Gove).

That’s one reason why May’s better deal failed and Johnson’s worse deal may succeed (as well as the man vs woman factor). It’s why Corbyn did better than expected v May in the general election of 2017 and will do worse than expected v Johnson in the next general election whenever it is - he could hardly have less charisma than May and he could hardly have more charisma than Johnson.

Most obviously, it’s why Remain can never win the argument against Leave, and Leave will never convince Remain. This argument, with neither side listening to each other (or really understanding what they are saying) will go on long after the U.K. has withdrawn from the EU, as it surely will.

Keltz
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:53 am

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Keltz » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:53 pm

Guy M wrote:This is how I see this


Well said, needs said, but the conclusion I cannot agree with as it totally ignores that the UK is made up of 4 countries and only 2 voted for Brexit. English exeptionalism, despite the 85% majority vote share, cannot be allowed to walk over the democratic process otherwise we no longer have a United Kingdom and have to openly recognise that British means English.

Kamisiana
Posts: 369
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:06 pm

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Kamisiana » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:25 pm

The sweaty socks have never wanted to be part of the United Kingdom :?


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