I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

[BST]

Kamisiana, I too have missed out by 6 years on my pension and the extra which I expected, would have certainly helped! However, Brexit and the thought of selling up here (possibly at a loss) , moving the strays we have taken in plus everything else to a country we really don't want to live in anymore, that's a totally different ball game!!

[altohb]

[quote="altohb" Far too straightforward for devious, self regarding politicians who wanted Brexit for their own ends, of course.

Does "Self regarding" as I have said before not cover about 90% of the remainers on this forum who for their own ends
use the same lines
What about (MY) free health cover.
It will take (Me) longer to get through passport control.
It Will affect (MY) annual pilgrimages across Europe in my gas guzzling motor home.
What about (ME) working Here.
Using citizens as bargaining chips is down to the EU as well
That's life you get over it or around it When I started work at 16 it was set in stone
I would get my state pension at 65 and my wife at 60 we will not I moaned for an
hour or two then shut up.

I guess we just look at life differently. Some of us feel that the removal of our rights is something worthy of complaint and we will do what we can to ensure that we can continue to live here. We came here in 2006. We have already survived the Greek crisis, with its fairly drastic effect on our income. I have also lost 6 years of my State Pension, so the prospect of private health insurance isn't one we relish. Yes, you could say we are self regarding - isn't everyone? The difference is that decisions we make only affect us. The decisions made by politicians are far more wide ranging. That goes for all of them, though I do feel that there are those on the EU side who care rather more about citizens than those in Westminster.

[BST]

It's not just me, me, me though. I feel privileged to have been able to plan my life/retirement in Greece with relative ease (Greek paperwork aside). I have young relatives who are hoping to live and work in Berlin and start a new exciting life abroad. If BREXIT happens, this will be highly unlikely! That just doesn't seem fair that they are in effect trapped in the UK when we weren't!

[Kilkis]

At least we can console ourselves with the thought that if it really does go all wrong and we all get kicked out, at least Kamisiana will get kicked out as well. To slightly paraphrase Patrick Nice, a character on the fast show, "So that will be nice".

Warwick

[Kamisiana]

At least we can console ourselves with the thought that if it really does go all wrong and we all get kicked out, at least Kamisiana will get kicked out as well. To slightly paraphrase Patrick Nice, a character on the fast show, "So that will be nice".

Warwick

That's uncharacteristically nasty and short post Warwick

[Kilkis]

...I am still hopeful of being able to stay, one way or another, so I will continue to stick it out as long as I can. I agree that the whole health issue is worrying but I think there is a chance of a bilateral agreement between the UK and Greece if nothing is agreed with the whole EU....

This ekathimerini article suggests that my hopefulness might be well founded. If Greece really wants to attract northern European pensioners then granting residency and having a reciprocal healthcare agreement are just as important as offering tax breaks.

I must confess that as someone who has been tax resident in Greece from the day I arrived, over 22 years ago, and having paid all my taxes in Greece for that period, it would be a bit galling if those who have avoided paying tax here by remaining tax resident in the UK, in some cases for almost as long, can suddenly avoid paying tax here for another ten years. Obviously it depends on the details of the arrangement. If they continue to pay tax in the UK for that ten years then I have no serious complaint. If, however, they can get a certificate from the Greek tax authority saying that they are tax resident in Greece and by submitting that to HMRC pay no tax in the UK either then I am not a happy bunny. Nobody likes paying tax but tax is the way we pay for all the things that are best funded communally. We can't really complain about companies like Amazon and Starbucks avoiding paying tax and then do it ourselves.

Warwick

[Keltz]

On run-up to the election I found this interesting fact, that ITV news is funded by the BBC license fee and that their news comes from the same major news suppliers.

As BBC funding is within the gift of the Tory government to grant or withdraw it is worth knowing how controlled the media is, especially if relying on such news to influence opinion.

As my gran used to say, if you want to know what is going on then follow the money.

[Jeffstclair]

On run-up to the election I found this interesting fact, that ITV news is funded by the BBC license fee and that their news comes from the same major news suppliers.

As BBC funding is within the gift of the Tory government to grant or withdraw it is worth knowing how controlled the media is, especially if relying on such news to influence opinion.

As my gran used to say, if you want to know what is going on then follow the money.

That is very interesting , have you got a link to the source of this bit about the funding from the licence fee ?...

[Kilkis]

ITN is owned by ITV, Daily Mail and General Trust, Reuters and United Business Media, all commercial companies operating in the media sector. As far as I am aware all funding for ITN comes from commercial sources such as advertising and sponsorship. It is not directly funded out of TV licence fees all of which goes to the BBC. There is an argument that it and all other commercial stations are being indirectly funded. If the BBC were to lose its licence fee funding it would be forced to go commercial and would be competing for advertising money with all other media outlets. Given that there is a limit on the amount of advertising money available that would reduce the revenue available to the existing commercial companies like ITN. I could be wrong. This is sometimes phrased as commercial broadcasters being "supported" by the TV licence fee but that description is tenuous.

Warwick

PS In my experience anybody who is a strong supporter of any political party or any political viewpoint sees bias against that party/viewpoint wherever they look. Anybody who is not a strong supporter of a particular party/viewpoint cannot detect the bias. Perhaps it can be phrased as "If you are biased you see bias but if you are neutral you see neutrality"? Alternatively perhaps my eyesight is simply worsening with age.

[Guy M]

The idea that elections are a level playing field is a bit odd. Different parties have different donors who give different amounts of money; they have different supporters who give different amounts of time - one reason Lab did better than expected in 2017 was because, via Momentum they mobilised large numbers of young people to do targeted canvassing in marginal seats; by comparison, 4 out of 10 Con members are over 65 years old and less likely to be tramping the streets campaigning on cold winter evenings.

Also, the media is no longer such a big influencer as in the past. Fewer people get their news from traditional papers or tv these days - that’s not what young people do.

If Con win this election, where the country is split roughly 50:50 between Remain and Leave, it won’t be only because of Brexit or the media's bias; it will also be because of local constituency factors, competition from LibDems and BP LTD and because people have a Hobson’s choice between an incompetent racist anti-Islam Con leader and an incompetent racist anti-Semite Lab leader.

[bobscott]

The above is my understanding too.

But Brexit has ground down the 2 expats in this house so far that we'd almost welcome a poor deal just to avoid a no-deal, if only to allow breathing space to Dec 2020 to sell up and return to the UK.

It has ground down the 2 immigrants in this house as well, GlennB, but with the opposite effect. I bitterly resent the fact that our lives have been turned upside down, having moved here under a set of "rules" which seemed set in stone (as much as they ever can be) and I'm more determined than ever to stay here. Like Warwick, I have hopes that the Greek government and whichever lot take the process forward in the UK are able to come to an agreement on stuff like healthcare before the end of the transition period. Using citizens as bargaining chips has been a disgusting process right from the beginning, and totally unnecessary. It would have been perfectly simple for both sides to agree that those who had moved in either direction prior to the end of the transition period (whenever that might be) should be allowed to stay under the same conditions as when they moved. Anyone migrating after that period, then new rules could apply. Far too straightforward for devious, self regarding politicians who wanted Brexit for their own ends, of course.[/quote

Agree. The basic trouble is that what seems simple to 'us' is complicated by 'them' - partly as a matter of habit and partly as a way to display knowledge, make party political points and generally bugger things up. 'Keep it simple' is always a good idea in my book. Bob.

[Keltz]

have you got a link to the source of this bit about the funding from the licence fee ?...

It is not direct funding, that would be open to criticism. As with many things in the U.K. transparency of government is not a strong point. Some consider the choice of new Westminster Speaker was driven by his close understanding of the unwritten practices and constitutional arrangements government operate under allowing them to effectively make up the rules as they go along as there is no actual written constitution in the UK just bills and legislation that can be changed when it suits. Johnson's recent actions as PM show a willingness to challenge these unwritten rules.

The BBC claims, with good reason, to be the largest collector and disseminator of News in the world in collaboration with Reuters. Reuters owns 20% of ITN and few years ago Sky were edged out of a dominant position in the U.K. that would have threatened BBC dominant position. A recent Chairman of BBC became executive Chairman of the ITV before becoming a Conservative life peer in the House of Lords. And then there is complete License Fee funding of a small Welsh channel S4C which has a budget for News over half the size of the total Scottish BBC budget. S4C are not regulated by Ofcom although they say they have close ties they are regulated directly by government through a quango I believe.

Presentation of news by BBC and ITV is different but the news is largely the same. Be aware.

[bobscott]

Er, permission to comment please. News, is news. All stations purporting to present the news, try to get the latest. So something dramatic happens: everyone reports it. So your point is....?

[Keltz]

Er, permission to comment please. News, is news. All stations purporting to present the news, try to get the latest. So something dramatic happens: everyone reports it. So your point is....?

Ha ok, the point is who decides what is important and more importantly what is not being reported. The internet has changed that but needs effort to use instead of passively sitting in front of a TV watching and absorbing.

Consider this, over the last 10 years with austerity, deep cuts and a debt level now approachng £2trn there is rarely any News on Norway a close neighbour with very similar Oil and Gas resources to the UK yet they now have a Sovereign Wealth Fund that stands at over 1trillion US Dollars yet the UK has only debt. That is very very dramatic but not news apparently.

[Kilkis]

Don't assume that social media is a panacea. I receive financial information from three or four companies that are not mainstream although they have a bigger circulation than the Wall Street Journal. They sell subscription financial information services but also provide free and unbiased information. Each of their writers can present their own views on what is happening in finance and there is no editorial view. For example one can suggest that the stock market is overdue a big correction, perhaps based on over-valuation of listed companies, and it would be better to get out of stocks and shares while another can argue that the increase in the stock market is likely to continue for several months more with big gains available, perhaps based on technical analysis and comparison to previous cycles. Both present their arguments and it is up to the reader to draw their own conclusions. One of the owners is highly sceptical about crypto currencies and doesn't want anything to do with them but his son is investing in them and he has writers advising on how to get a return from them. Facebook, Google and Twitter didn't like some of the views they put forward so they blacklisted them. Facebook and Twitter blocked their accounts and Google searches stopped listing them at all. You can show videos of beheadings, incite racial violence, promote self harm etc and those companies do not have a problem. As long as it keeps people on their site with a chance of them clicking on adverts they don't care what the content is. Say something they don't like and you are shut down. Don't think that social media is open and free. It is very much in the control of a small number of very powerful people just like the print media.

Warwick

PS After a battle some/all of these accounts were reinstated but it illustrates what power the owners of the social media platforms have.