I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

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Keltz
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:53 am

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Keltz » Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:56 pm

Toebs wrote:
Keltz wrote:
Toebs wrote:People who agree with the court are aghast at the violations of democratic norms being pursued by the Conservative leadership. This issue is I fear being wholly or almost wholly overlooked by those wishing to leave the EU.


I'm not sure what you mean


What I was emphasising ( and I think you were expressing a similar opinion ), is that violations of demcratic norms is becoming ingrained in the political process and accepted by a number of people.

Associating the 17.5 million voters that voted Leave with the suggestion that they think democracy is less important than implementing an advisory referendum is not proven and is something the current government is trying to avoid. This is where we are now in PM Johnson pitting people against parliament and encouraging language that questions the impartiality of the Judicial system.

Democracy is at stake here, not Brexit.

Toebs
Posts: 274
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:42 pm

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Toebs » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:50 am

Well firstly a caretaker government could decide to hold a second referendum and then an election if that is what the people forming the caretaker government agree to.


I have been thinking, and I had the impression from what I'd read, the care-taker Government being touted as going to do one thing and one thing only, hold an election.

Holding a *referendum* as well is very different, and changes the meaning and impact of that route.

Secondly, if Brexit is not complete before an election the leave vote will also be split between the Brexit Party and Conservatives so Conservatives winning is far from certain.


Mmm, not convinced. I you look at the vote now, you can say it's split, but Cons are still 10 points ahead - and I think in an election, with Johnson *not* discredited, Cons will get a lot of the Brexit vote, just as they do now, and right now they're in a winning position.

I think it will almost certainly be a hung parliament so an election will probably not resolve Brexit.


I'm not sure about this. If Cons have 30%+ I'd expect an outright majority.

I'm not sure a second referendum will resolve it either. Finally leaving without a deal will not resolve it because any attempt then to reach a trade agreement with the EU will be met with, "OK, but first we must agree on the divorce bill, citizens rights and the Irish border problem". These issues will not simply vanish into thin air.


Pandora's Box.

So, turning to current events, I think Johnson is going to propose a deliberately unworkable plan. The EU will say no. Johnson will then say "we're leaving on the 31st no matter what, while obeying the law" and then a State of Emergency will be declared to allow Johnson to ignore Parliament. The UK will crash out. The State of Emergency will be ruled illegal, but it'll be too late.

Kilkis
Posts: 11030
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Kilkis » Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:29 am

Toebs wrote:...The State of Emergency will be ruled illegal, but it'll be too late.


Again, I'm not sure that is true. The UK government has to implement the whole Article 50 process in accordance with UK constitutional law. If a court ruled that the State of Emergency was not legal and the UK had left the EU without a deal during the State of Emergency the EU could regard that leaving to be not in accordance with UK constitutional law and hence null and void under Article 50. Certainly parliament would support that view, especially with the Benn Act in place. Johnson would have then broken the law three times. Unlawful prorogation, failure to ask for an extension under the Benn act and unlawful declaration of a State of Emergency. I don't think their Lordships would view that kindly?

Warwick

Kilkis
Posts: 11030
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Kilkis » Sat Oct 12, 2019 10:05 pm

If you have access to UK TV it is worth watching the Rachel Parris section of The Mash Report on BBC2 on Thursday 10 October at 22:00 UK time, midnight Greek time. For those with IPTV service in Greece it will probably list as 00:00 on Friday 11 October. It's near the beginning of the show. The rest of the programme is also pretty good but her part is exceptional.

Warwick

scooby

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby scooby » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:01 pm

Some will stop at nothing, it's getting ridiculous now:


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50076186

Philb
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:33 pm
Location: Kalamitsi Alexandrou

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Philb » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:42 pm

scooby wrote:Some will stop at nothing, it's getting ridiculous now:


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50076186

Well, if it's illegal it should be stopped.

Jeffstclair
Posts: 1393
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:00 pm
Location: The centre of the universe

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Jeffstclair » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:01 pm

scooby wrote:Some will stop at nothing, it's getting ridiculous now:


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50076186

It has always been ridiculous way back in 2016 having a binary vote on something so complex was ridiculous ... But when we said that it was labeled “project fear”...so now we have a bad deal or no deal ...hobsons choice ...

scooby

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby scooby » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:05 pm

Philb wrote:
scooby wrote:Some will stop at nothing, it's getting ridiculous now:


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50076186

Well, if it's illegal it should be stopped.
It’s been kicked out, waste of time and money, pathetic.
Never known so many court cases, they lie to people saying they are trying to stop a no deal when in reality they just want to try to stop the UK leaving.

Philb
Posts: 193
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:33 pm
Location: Kalamitsi Alexandrou

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Philb » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:15 pm

scooby wrote:
Philb wrote:
scooby wrote:Some will stop at nothing, it's getting ridiculous now:


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50076186

Well, if it's illegal it should be stopped.
It’s been kicked out, waste of time and money, pathetic.
Never known so many court cases, they lie to people saying they are trying to stop a no deal when in reality they just want to try to stop the UK leaving.


All the lies, terrible.

scooby

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby scooby » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:30 pm

Yes it’s terrible, the remain mp’s filling people’s minds with their lies but the worst thing is that naive people believe them.

bobscott
Posts: 2543
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:36 pm
Location: Kokkino Horio

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby bobscott » Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:56 pm

Something of a sense of deja vu here Scooby - but where's the bus? Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

GlennB
Posts: 172
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: Arkadia, Peloponnese

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby GlennB » Sat Oct 19, 2019 2:36 pm

“Under no circumstances... will I allow the EU or anyone else to create any kind of division down the Irish Sea."

Wonder who said that, in July 2019. Hmmm ... let me think ...

scooby

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby scooby » Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:20 pm

The EU said it was the only deal possible, May’s remainer cabinet said it was the only deal possible, the EU said the backstop could not be negotiated. All the so called experts said the same.
Every remainer said Johnson is a fraud and is not interested in a deal and he wants no deal. They also said even in the unlikely event of the EU entertaining any negotiations there wouldn’t be enough time. Why should I listen to anyone who comes out with this rubbish? Where are these people now? Have they admitted they were wrong? Have they any humility whatsoever?
People might get a little respect if they recognise that simple fact. I am not just talking members of Parliament here.

Keltz
Posts: 169
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:53 am

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Keltz » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:28 pm

scooby wrote:Every remainer said Johnson is a fraud and is not interested in a deal and he wants no deal.


Calm down scooby, you don't know every remain voter, Johnson is a liar and therefore a fraud and his financial backers are not interested in a deal they want a no deal to enhance their wealth with Trump on the sidelines waiting to scoop up the post Brexit UK fire sale.

The preparation for no deal Brexit is nothing but a stock-take prior to the country going into administration and bits sold off to the highest bidder.

scooby

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby scooby » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:17 pm

Keltz wrote:
scooby wrote:Every remainer said Johnson is a fraud and is not interested in a deal and he wants no deal.


Calm down scooby, you don't know every remain voter, Johnson is a liar and therefore a fraud and his financial backers are not interested in a deal they want a no deal to enhance their wealth with Trump on the sidelines waiting to scoop up the post Brexit UK fire sale.

The preparation for no deal Brexit is nothing but a stock-take prior to the country going into administration and bits sold off to the highest bidder.

The prime minister has negotiated a deal despite your conspiracy theory.


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