I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Temporary Forum - Please keep it CIVIL and ON TOPIC regarding updates/ news / concerns on British living / travelling in the EU.
YoMo2
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby YoMo2 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:54 pm

Guy M wrote:
YoMo2 wrote:Excuse my ignorance, but I've stopped taking any interest; what exactly will we gain by "leaving", whilst staying in the Single Market and the Customs Union? Genuine question.

Andrew


No one can honestly say what we would gain by any of the options from No Deal to Remain and everything In between. That’s why we’ve all been shouting at each other in increasingly loud voices for the last 3.5 years.


Of course. But I can see only negatives in the Labour Party position. We lose any say in what happens in the EU and are forbidden from negotiating trade deals elsewhere. I just wondered if I was missing something. Basically it's BRINO isn't it?

Andrew

Guy M
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Guy M » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:02 pm

If you can see the Labour Party’s position at all you’re doing better than me. I didn’t know they had one.

Jeffstclair
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Jeffstclair » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:54 am

I just did your compass test and ...I'm in the bottom left corner of the the green square ...no hope for me ....

Mixos
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Mixos » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:06 am

No, that's good Jeff. It means you have a strong sense of social justice and are extremely liberal in outlook. Live and let live. You're not, by any chance, an ageing hippie? That would fit!

Kilkis
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Kilkis » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:47 am

YoMo2 wrote:...Of course. But I can see only negatives in the Labour Party position. We lose any say in what happens in the EU and are forbidden from negotiating trade deals elsewhere. I just wondered if I was missing something. Basically it's BRINO isn't it?

Andrew


Realistically yes, the Labour position is BRINO. If you listen carefully to the Labour proposition they always talk about negotiating a deal that would leave the UK in "a" single market and "a" customs union. Note the careful use of the word "a". They somehow believe that they can negotiate a deal with the EU that gives all the benefits of being in the single market and customs union without the downsides, i.e. some special single market and customs union just for the UK. This is yet more unicorn thinking. The EU has "the" single market and "the" customs union. You can be in them or out of them. If you opt to be in you gain the benefits but you pay the costs. If you are out you lose the benefits but you don't need to pay the costs. There is no evidence whatsoever anywhere that the EU will deviate from this position. They are happy to do free trade deals under WTO rules but they wouldn't include completely free access with no borders and no customs checks as happens by being a member. In fact WTO rules requires there to be such borders and customs checks.

Any Labour negotiated deal along single market - customs union lines would inevitably lead to a situation where the UK still has to pay into the budget, still accept EU laws, still accept jurisdiction of the ECJ on EU laws, still not be able to do independent trade deals and still accept free movement. The gross budget payment might be less but it is also possible that the net budget payment could be more. We wouldn't have to accept all EU law but that isn't a freedom to choose whether to accept or not. We would have to accept all EU law that was relevant to our trading relationship and we would have little/no influence over what those laws say. Currently the UK is one of the top influencers in shaping EU law. It might be possible to have some limited control on free movement but that is not certain. The UK could be out of the common agricultural policy and the common fisheries policy. Whether those are benefits depends on your point of view.

It is also worth noting that if the UK were to negotiate a free trade deal with the EU that would also limit our ability to deviate from EU regulations. The reason trade deals take so long to negotiate is the comparison of regulations in the two countries to determine if they are broadly equivalent. They don't have to be identical, as ours are as a member of the EU, but if they are very different that can act as a barrier to trade. It's no good legally having free trade if practically you don't have it because the regulatory regimes are so different. We would be able to deviate but not very far. Incidentally, so far no one who voted leave to take back sovereignty has suggested one single EU derived law that they want to abolish or to significantly change, why or in what way?

Whichever side of the debate your views lie on Brexit the only two realistic options are to remain or to be completely out but with a free trade deal. Labour's position is crazy. Equally so is Farage's position. Most countries in the world are members of the WTO and as such are subject to WTO rules. None of them, however, deliberately try to trade on WTO terms. All of them have, and are trying to negotiate more, free trade deals with like minded countries.

Warwick

Toebs
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Toebs » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:36 pm

Political Compass : bottom right, Libertarian. Free market, and individual freedom too.

Jeffstclair
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Jeffstclair » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:25 pm

Mixos wrote:No, that's good Jeff. It means you have a strong sense of social justice and are extremely liberal in outlook. Live and let live. You're not, by any chance, an ageing hippie? That would fit!


Well both my parents were socialists and hard grafters, hated any kind of prejudice ..taught us to be freethinking and fare minded ...I might have been a bit of a hippy but at age 66 I'm still not ageing ....but there is some old looking bloke I do see in the bathroom mirror....

Howard
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Howard » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:03 pm

I am nowhere as well up on the details of deals/agreements etc. as many on here so my question may seem simple, but if (if!) the present Boris Johnson agreement were implemeted into UK and EU law (i.e. if Tories win the election and proceed with the present "deal") would that safeguard those of us concerned about health care (the S1 isssue for pensioners) and future residency issues? Or is nothing resolved?

Guy M
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Location: Kalamitsi Alexandrou

Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Guy M » Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:09 pm

Howard wrote:I am nowhere as well up on the details of deals/agreements etc. as many on here so my question may seem simple, but if (if!) the present Boris Johnson agreement were implemeted into UK and EU law (i.e. if Tories win the election and proceed with the present "deal") would that safeguard those of us concerned about health care (the S1 isssue for pensioners) and future residency issues? Or is nothing resolved?


I thought nothing was really resolved wrt specifics like residency and health until (at least) we get to the end of the transition period.

Kilkis
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Kilkis » Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:39 pm

I believe that both the May Agreement and the Johnson Agreement have an implementation period up to the end of 2020, although I haven't studied the Johnson Agreement in detail. Assuming one of those two agreements is ratified by both the UK and the EU before 31 January 2020, or a later date if there is yet a further extension to the Article 50 process, then healthcover under the S1 scheme will continue to the end of the implementation period. The implementation period is like the UK still being in the EU, i.e. still paying in, still accepting EU laws, still subject to ECJ jurisdiction, still accepting free movement and no independent trade deals, although technically it won't still be a member state.

During the implementation period the UK government and the EU are supposed to negotiate what the future relationship will be between the UK and the EU. Thus, whether healthcover under the S1 scheme continues after the end of the implementation period depends on the results of that negotiation. If the negotiation is not complete by the end of 2020 it is technically possible to extend the end of the implementation period, by agreement of both parties, BUT Johnson is not very keen on that idea because of what it implies as described in paragraph 1. Some people think Johnson, or those around him, really want to leave with no deal and his/their plan is to get the withdrawal agreement through parliament and then simply let the implementation period expire without reaching a conclusion - effectively a no-deal Brexit by the back door.

I believe that the continuing right to reside for existing residents is embedded in the citizens rights section of both May's and Johnson's agreement so if either agreement is ratified by both the UK and the EU existing residents would have the right to stay whatever the future relationship. If, however, the system used to grant the right to remain includes proof of healthcare and the S1 scheme, or something similar, is not included in the future relationship then it will not be possible to exercise that right unless you can obtain private health insurance, which many of us can't, i.e. RINO - resident in name only.

Warwick

GlennB
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby GlennB » Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:18 pm

The above is my understanding too.

But Brexit has ground down the 2 expats in this house so far that we'd almost welcome a poor deal just to avoid a no-deal, if only to allow breathing space to Dec 2020 to sell up and return to the UK.

Kilkis
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Kilkis » Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:01 pm

Sorry you feel that way, Glenn. I am still hopeful of being able to stay, one way or another, so I will continue to stick it out as long as I can. I agree that the whole health issue is worrying but I think there is a chance of a bilateral agreement between the UK and Greece if nothing is agreed with the whole EU. I am a realist/pragmatist, rather than optimist or pessimist, but even people like me can live in hope. I don't really care if the glass is half full or half empty. As long as there is a glass I am sure I can find something to put in it - I always have so far and "so far" covers quite an extensive period of time.

Warwick

altohb
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby altohb » Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:37 pm

GlennB wrote:The above is my understanding too.

But Brexit has ground down the 2 expats in this house so far that we'd almost welcome a poor deal just to avoid a no-deal, if only to allow breathing space to Dec 2020 to sell up and return to the UK.


It has ground down the 2 immigrants in this house as well, GlennB, but with the opposite effect. I bitterly resent the fact that our lives have been turned upside down, having moved here under a set of "rules" which seemed set in stone (as much as they ever can be) and I'm more determined than ever to stay here. Like Warwick, I have hopes that the Greek government and whichever lot take the process forward in the UK are able to come to an agreement on stuff like healthcare before the end of the transition period. Using citizens as bargaining chips has been a disgusting process right from the beginning, and totally unnecessary. It would have been perfectly simple for both sides to agree that those who had moved in either direction prior to the end of the transition period (whenever that might be) should be allowed to stay under the same conditions as when they moved. Anyone migrating after that period, then new rules could apply. Far too straightforward for devious, self regarding politicians who wanted Brexit for their own ends, of course.

Jeffstclair
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Jeffstclair » Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:43 pm

Yes , altohb that is our position , I really would not want to move back to the UK ...end up renting a house in the UK ..while trying to sell our house,
and few strema of olive trees, grapes, and vegetable plots here ...

Kamisiana
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Re: I smelled a rat, and I found a rat

Postby Kamisiana » Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:23 pm

[quote="altohb" Far too straightforward for devious, self regarding politicians who wanted Brexit for their own ends, of course.

Does "Self regarding" as I have said before not cover about 90% of the remainers on this forum who for their own ends
use the same lines
What about (MY) free health cover.
It will take (Me) longer to get through passport control.
It Will affect (MY) annual pilgrimages across Europe in my gas guzzling motor home.
What about (ME) working Here.
Using citizens as bargaining chips is down to the EU as well
That's life you get over it or around it When I started work at 16 it was set in stone
I would get my state pension at 65 and my wife at 60 we will not I moaned for an
hour or two then shut up.


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