Withdrawal Agreement & our Rights - What's covered?

Temporary Forum - Please keep it CIVIL and ON TOPIC regarding updates/ news / concerns on British living / travelling in the EU.
YoMo2
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Re: Withdrawal Agreement & our Rights - What's covered?

Postby YoMo2 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 9:19 am

Carolina wrote:Yes the long term visa is a National Visa, rather than a uniform Schengen visa.

https://visaguide.world/europe/greece-v ... ce-permit/


Right. That makes sense now. But there are only three categories of visa, none of which would, I guess, be applicable to expats wanting to circumvent the biometric permit. 1. Family re-unification. 2. Employment. 3. Student.

And if you are staying for more than a year, you need to apply for a residence permit anyway.

So I still reckon it's misleading to suggest that as a route?

Andrew

Carolina
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Re: Withdrawal Agreement & our Rights - What's covered?

Postby Carolina » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:41 pm

YoMo2 wrote:
Right. That makes sense now. But there are only three categories of visa, none of which would, I guess, be applicable to expats wanting to circumvent the biometric permit. 1. Family re-unification. 2. Employment. 3. Student.

And if you are staying for more than a year, you need to apply for a residence permit anyway.

So I still reckon it's misleading to suggest that as a route?

Andrew


Yes, possibly, although I have been reading that there used to be one-year visas issued for non-EU citizen property owners (before the 'Golden Visa' existed), so not sure if that is, or will be, still a route. However it is (was?) only issued once (for one year) in order to apply for residency.

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Re: Withdrawal Agreement & our Rights - What's covered?

Postby Carolina » Wed Feb 12, 2020 3:49 pm

Final part of the British in Europe guide published today -
"We've been gathering questions that have been raised since we published our popular Withdrawal Agreement guides. We've now published the final part, Frequently Asked Questions...
Please remember to support our Crowdfunder so we can continue to fight for your rights."

Part 6:
https://britishineurope.org/2020/01/25/ ... ement-faqs

Point 5. Confirmation that if you have less than 5 years residence in your host state you can be absent for a maximum of 6 months per year to fulfil the conditions of residence.
If you have permanent residence as an EU citizen (ie. more than 5 years of legal residence) new rules in the WA will allow you to be away from your state for 5 years.

Upgrade those beige permits if you have more than 5 years on them!

Britsih in Greece Facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/313197395758514/

Carolina
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Re: Withdrawal Agreement & our Rights - What's covered?

Postby Carolina » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:22 pm

Andrew,

Some more info and links popped up via British in Greece FB group.

How can financially independent people (NON EU) get a Greek residence permit?

Greek residence permits for financially independent persons are issued to foreign nationals whose home country incomes exceed €2,000 per month. Along with the main applicants, these residence permits are also issued to spouses and children under 18 years of age, but in this case, the minimum income amount increases by 20% when applying with the spouse and by 15% per child.

Residence permits for financially independent persons are issued for two years, after which holders can renew them every three years. The period of stay in Greece is not limited, and residence permit holders can live there permanently or not visit the country at all.

Applicants only have to visit Greece once to obtain a residence permit for financially independent persons. The whole procedure takes 10 to 14 weeks. The total cost of obtaining the residence permit for financially independent persons is about €3,000 (and an extra €1,500 for the spouse and €1,000 per child). :shock: :shock:

BUT first have to apply for a D type visa in your home country.

It's certainly not straight forward and includes a criminal record check. After the end of December 2020 this will likely be the only route to a residence permit, or the Golden Visa scheme, for those wishing to move to Crete after the end of the transition period. .. plus no S1/health cover for newly resident pensioners after Dec 2020 unless a reciprocal agreement is made beyond 2020.
There's more info of procedures etc on this link:
https://citizenshipbyinvestment.ch/inde ... ce-permit/

CONCLUSION. Our current beige and blue registration certificates are seeming more and more like gold dust.

Jeffstclair
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Re: Withdrawal Agreement & our Rights - What's covered?

Postby Jeffstclair » Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:53 pm

So does this mean that if a single person wanted to retire to Crete after the transition period on a UK state pension ...they could not do it ?

Carolina
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Re: Withdrawal Agreement & our Rights - What's covered?

Postby Carolina » Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:29 pm

I don't know Jeff, perhaps they'll take savings into account as well.

It's all a very new area for us so we just don't know the current TCN rules and trying to learn what we can as we go along,

Are there any American / Canadian / Australian etc pensioners out there?? (Don't expect they will be reading Brexit threads though!).

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Re: Withdrawal Agreement & our Rights - What's covered?

Postby kvsteele » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:18 am

Hello Carol,
I hold both British and Canadian citizenships and have been living on Crete for nearly 8 years. I hold a blue permanent residence card. My understanding is that a Canadian citizen cannot own property on Crete and can only stay for a maximum of six months on a visa so buying the house and health coverage was all based on our UK citizenships. As you are well aware it does rather depend on who you ask! I have been watching developments re Brexit very carefully especially those concerning health coverage ( with the S 1 form from the UK). My husband ( who also had dual citizenship) died 14 months ago so I am now considering selling my house on Crete and returning to Canada although of course I understand that I will take a loss on the house as many people are returning to the UK. In my small village alone, to my knowledge, four houses belonging to expats have already gone on the market. I understand that at the end of 2020 rules for expats, especially health coverage, may all change. It is a very difficult time for all expats and I certainly check this forum every day for any further information. I would like to thank you and everyone on the forum who has been a great help over the years I have lived here. I am happy to share my experiences with anyone, realizing of course, that everything can change here, depending who you ask and which area you live in. Vivien.
Moved onto Crete finally...It's been a long wait

YoMo2
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Re: Withdrawal Agreement & our Rights - What's covered?

Postby YoMo2 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:21 am

kvsteele wrote:....... I am now considering selling my house on Crete and returning to Canada although of course I understand that I will take a loss on the house as many people are returning to the UK. In my small village alone, to my knowledge, four houses belonging to expats have already gone on the market.......


Looking on the bright side, it may be that there will be a surge of interest from UK buyers now that the withdrawal agreement has clarified the situation, and now that UK citizens need to be resident here before 1/1/21.

Andrew

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Re: Withdrawal Agreement & our Rights - What's covered?

Postby Kilkis » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:31 am

kvsteele wrote:...I understand that at the end of 2020 rules for expats, especially health coverage, may all change...Vivien.


Hi Vivien. I think there are quite a few people who have dual nationality and may have come to Greece from a third country, like Canada, but do so on the basis of their UK citizenship. Just for clarity most things, including healthcare coverage, should NOT change for anybody who is living legally, i.e. holding either form of Residence Registration Certificate, in Greece by the end of 2020. Those with healthcare through an S1 Form will continue to receive it. Anybody who does not yet qualify for healthcare through an S1 Form should become eligible when they reach UK State Pension age.

Things will be different for anybody who arrives here after the end of 2020 but exactly how different we will not know until the terms of the future agreement are decided and ratified. If Boris is aiming for a type of deal that he claims to be aiming for then I think they will be very different but you never know if what he says is just a negotiating stance.

For some people there may be differences that affect them even if they are living here legally by the end of 2020, e.g. changes in pet passport rules if they take pets backwards and forwards.

Warwick

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Re: Withdrawal Agreement & our Rights - What's covered?

Postby Carolina » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:02 pm

kvsteele wrote:Hello Carol,
I hold both British and Canadian citizenships and have been living on Crete for nearly 8 years. I hold a blue permanent residence card. My understanding is that a Canadian citizen cannot own property on Crete and can only stay for a maximum of six months on a visa so buying the house and health coverage was all based on our UK citizenships. As you are well aware it does rather depend on who you ask! I have been watching developments re Brexit very carefully especially those concerning health coverage ( with the S 1 form from the UK). My husband ( who also had dual citizenship) died 14 months ago so I am now considering selling my house on Crete and returning to Canada although of course I understand that I will take a loss on the house as many people are returning to the UK. In my small village alone, to my knowledge, four houses belonging to expats have already gone on the market. I understand that at the end of 2020 rules for expats, especially health coverage, may all change. It is a very difficult time for all expats and I certainly check this forum every day for any further information. I would like to thank you and everyone on the forum who has been a great help over the years I have lived here. I am happy to share my experiences with anyone, realizing of course, that everything can change here, depending who you ask and which area you live in. Vivien.



Hi Vivien,

Thanks for your reply.

Just to be clear, continuing healthcare with the S1 will not change at the end of 2020 for anyone who is already legally resident & registered in an EU country by that date. It is now protected in the signed Withdrawal Agreement.

Other Brits, who have had the freedom until now to live half in and half out of Crete, with a foot in both doors, will find that almost impossible to do from next year and I can see why they might want to sell up and move back to the UK full time.

Rick
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Re: Withdrawal Agreement & our Rights - What's covered?

Postby Rick » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:28 pm

But even if ‘part timers’ decide not to obtain biometric residence cards, there’s still the option of spending 6 months at their second home in Crete over two periods. e.g. start of Feb til end of Apr & start of Aug til end of Oct. Just be sure to purchase comprehensive travel insurance that allows trips for up to 3 months. Admittedly, it’s not going to be beach weather all the time, but does that really matter?

That said, over time, there will probably be a gradual decline of retired Brits, being replaced by other Nationalities.

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Re: Withdrawal Agreement & our Rights - What's covered?

Postby Mixos » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:56 pm

Rick, I'm not sure that 'part timers' or 'in betweeners' (and that includes me) will even be allowed to obtain biometric residence cards (which imply an application for full-time residence) as we will effectively become third country nationals subject to the 90 days in 180 rule, even if we own property in Crete. Surely a biometric card will ONLY be available to those who are, or will have to become, tax residents in Greece? As has been pointed out elsewhere, this is going to catch out a lot of Brits who have managed to live full time in Crete while remaining UK tax residents. After the end of this year, I can't see that still being possible -- or am I missing something?!

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Re: Withdrawal Agreement & our Rights - What's covered?

Postby Kilkis » Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:40 pm

Mixos wrote:...Surely a biometric card will ONLY be available to those who are, or will have to become, tax residents in Greece?...


I suspect you are probably correct but it is not 100 % certain. Greek government is notoriously less joined up than northern European countries. If somebody has been registered as non-tax resident in Greece for many years and has acquired a Permanent Residence Certificate it is possible they may be able to change it for a third country biometric residence card at the end of 2020/early 2021 and still keep their tax status. Consider the following:

    1 Up until now people were supposed to get an EU Initial Residence Certificate if they lived here for more than 3 months so they could hold such a certificate and still be eligible to be non-tax resident, i.e. live here between 3 months and 182 days in any year.

    2 As far as I can tell the police issued EU Permanent Residence Certificates on the basis that someone had held an Initial Residence Certificate for 5 years. They still checked that they had health insurance and sufficient income but no mention was made as to how long they lived here per year. Thus someone could be holding an EU Permanent Residence Certificate and still be eligible to be non-tax resident, i.e. live here between 3 months and 182 days in any year. I am not sure that EU Permanent Residence Certificates are supposed to be issued to people who live less than 183 days in any year but they certainly have been.

    3 According to the Withdrawal Agreement EU Permanent Residence Certificates are supposed to be exchanged automatically for third country biometric residence cards with at most a criminal record check.

It is not clear, therefore, that there will be any cross checking between the tax authority and the police issuing the new cards. We will not know until the process starts around one year from now. Since people who hold the new cards can be outside the country for any period up to five years they could claim to be here for less than 183 days in any year. Obviously the legality of anybody who is here more than 183 days in any year claiming that they are here less than 183 days is dubious. It may be possible, however, for somebody who does split their time between the UK and Greece and who has already obtained an EU Permanent Residence Certificate to obtain a new card and continue to live here part time. I am not certain that this is what the law intends and so I am not saying it will be possible but I could envisage it happening purely because of how the process is structured.

Warwick

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Re: Withdrawal Agreement & our Rights - What's covered?

Postby Rick » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:12 pm

This is a very valid scenario you’ve illustrated Warwick, and would probably apply also when beige residents are being exchanged for biometric residence cards? However, the point I’m trying to make is that ‘part timers’ will still be able to legally enjoy spending six months a year at their second homes even without a residence certificate, but they’ll need to split their time between two or more trips to comply with the 90/180 day rule. Not so bad, is it?

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Re: Withdrawal Agreement & our Rights - What's covered?

Postby bettyboo » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:18 pm

From what I understand is that if part timers don't register for the new card but decide they want to after June 2021 they will have to do so under conditions for Third Country Nationals..currently this has an income criteria of 2000 euro a month..private health cover and maybe the most important factor is loss of reciprocal S1 healthcare cover. As long as you are registered by June 21 you are guaranteed S1 cover in the future under the WA..


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