Lawyer - anybody knows him?

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Kilkis
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Location: Near Chania

Re: Lawyer - anybody knows him?

Postby Kilkis » Fri May 19, 2017 11:52 am

Here is one line from a PWC report on the Greek housing market:

    "Since 2008 the number of housing transactions fell by 72%, while house prices fell by 41%, especially in the urban centers."

Another quite interesting statement in the conclusions on Page 40:

    "the supply and demand in the housing market will balance at about 2047, due to oversupply, high taxation and limited mortgage lending"

I think that is a more reliable source of information than anecdotal evidence. A 71 % fall in transactions and a 41 % fall in prices plus gross oversupply tallies pretty well with what I have posted on here.

Warwick

Peter W
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Location: Near Spili

Re: Lawyer - anybody knows him?

Postby Peter W » Fri May 19, 2017 8:36 pm

Whilst I essentially agree with your analysis of the Cretan housing market Warwick I would be wary of using the PWC Report on the Greek housing market as empirical evidence of what's happening in what is essentially a holiday/second home market in Crete.

I also find their phrase "while house prices fell by 41%, especially in the urban centers." rather strange, I think I know what they mean but its sloppy English.

Peter

mouche
Posts: 537
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:43 pm

Re: Lawyer - anybody knows him?

Postby mouche » Sat May 20, 2017 9:33 am

Kilkis wrote:Here is one line from a PWC report on the Greek housing market:

    "Since 2008 the number of housing transactions fell by 72%, while house prices fell by 41%, especially in the urban centers."

Another quite interesting statement in the conclusions on Page 40:

    "the supply and demand in the housing market will balance at about 2047, due to oversupply, high taxation and limited mortgage lending"

I think that is a more reliable source of information than anecdotal evidence. A 71 % fall in transactions and a 41 % fall in prices plus gross oversupply tallies pretty well with what I have posted on here.

Warwick


You refer to Greece, the country, and I refer to 100% concrete examples of houses sold and/or built in a few villages in Crete. According to local agents we could today sell our house at a higher price than what we paid in 2011/2012, but the again you know best. Good quality subjects in the right location do sell in any market, facts of life, live with it.

Kilkis
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Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Lawyer - anybody knows him?

Postby Kilkis » Sat May 20, 2017 11:43 am

Well if you want to base it purely on personal experience, every house that I know that has been sold in my area in the past couple of years the sellers have reduced the asking price by between 40 % and over 50 % in order to get a sale. The original asking price was about what they paid for it and was what an agent told them they could get. I do not know one single person who as achieved what they paid for their property or anywhere near what the agent suggested. Do you know what price was actually achieved for the houses that sold near you compared to what they cost originally or what the agent's estimate was? Why is your experience more valid than mine? My personal experience is in line with government figures and a wide range of reports. Yours is completely contrary to government figures and reports but an agent told you so it must be correct?

I agree that good property in the right location will sell easier than a bad property or a bad location but overall you can't buck the market. There will always be another good property in a good location that has followed the market and that will sell first. There are always sellers who need to sell. Obviously there can be individual exceptions. A buyer might not have done their homework and be stupid enough to pay above market price but I think they are few and far between.

In the end people will read our diverse opinions and make their own minds up.

Yes, I recognise that different sectors of the market will behave differently, Peter, so the exact decrease for a holiday home in Crete might not be identical to the overall picture, which is heavily influenced by Athens. However, I think anybody who thinks that the overall decrease in prices and number of transactions have completely bypassed Crete is crazy. If Crete hadn't suffered a similar depression of the market why did all the big developers go bankrupt? How many ex-pats in the Apokoronou area who came to Greece to work simply shut up their homes and went back to the UK because they couldn't afford to continue living in Crete but they couldn't afford to sell their properties for the sort of price they could get. The houses that have sold that I have personal experience of were not holiday/second homes. They were permanent homes built to a high standard in good locations roughly around the peak in the market. As discussed above, they were all reduced in line with official government figures in order to sell.

Warwick

moved 2 crete
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Location: chania

Re: Lawyer - anybody knows him?

Postby moved 2 crete » Sat May 20, 2017 1:50 pm

In most areas house prices are well below the expected price from the seller's point of view, the main problem with new build is the land price rise going back 11 years when the Cretan landowners realised that they could get a lot higher prices than before, I don`t think that the actual builders price to actually build has gone up as high as the rise in land prices, I may be wrong but that is how I see it, as Warwick said once before, If you are not a speculator and have no desire to move on you have no problem....... :)
Dave H

mouche
Posts: 537
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:43 pm

Re: Lawyer - anybody knows him?

Postby mouche » Sat May 20, 2017 2:41 pm

Kilkis wrote:Well if you want to base it purely on personal experience, every house that I know that has been sold in my area in the past couple of years the sellers have reduced the asking price by between 40 % and over 50 % in order to get a sale. The original asking price was about what they paid for it and was what an agent told them they could get.


No, contrary to you I base it on personal experience in combination with facts and figures and in dialouge with people who make a living buying/selling/building houses on behalf of clients. Again, I'm talking about specific areas in Crete (Apokoronas), not Greece nor Mongolia. That said, I'm not surprised to hear that lots of people have been "forced" to sell at a much reduced price which is due to a combination of having bought at a highly inflated price and poor buildingquality. This seems to be the case in particular with houses bought/owned by Brits and built by "Brits", some of whom have later on fled and/or been shot!

Even today you will find a demand, demand higher than supply (!) for properties that are ready for development in Plaka and with the right location. To some of us a house is not just a house (any house) but I realize to others that may be so!

bobscott
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Location: Kokkino Horio

Re: Lawyer - anybody knows him?

Postby bobscott » Sat May 20, 2017 3:20 pm

We had a very good build in a very good location. If it's of any help to the arguments going on, euro for euro we got 17% more than we paid over a period of 12 years ( and dropped the original asking price considerably!). Having failed my O level maths 3 times, turned up in the afternoon of the 4th attempt only to find the exam had been switched to the morning, I gave up and continued to work successfully for a firm of auditors until National Service took me away and led to a new career.

Someone else on the forum can work out if we have made a profit or a loss!
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Kilkis
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Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Lawyer - anybody knows him?

Postby Kilkis » Sat May 20, 2017 4:25 pm

The peak of the market was roughly 6 years ago so going back 12 years would take you to well before the peak, Bob. The drops I have been talking about are from the peak to now. Having said that I would have still expected the price today to be a bit lower than they were twelve years ago, since the fall has been steeper than the ramp up, so you did well to get a 17 % gain. You say you dropped the asking price considerably to get a sale. Could I ask on what basis you to set the initial asking price, e.g. you thought you would give it a try, you were hopeful you could get that amount, an agent suggested that asking price etc?

You do like to obfuscate the debate Mouche. What has Mongolia got to do with anything? You say you base your opinion on facts and figures but you never quote any facts and figures just assertions. For information the properties I am basing my opinions on:

    1 Were not on Apokoronou.
    2 Were designed by Greek architects and built by small independent Greek builders not British builders nor the massive firms like Hellenic or New Century.
    3 Were individually designed and built on individual plots not part of some vast estate.
    4 Were built for permanent year round occupancy to a very high standard. The one that I quoted that had to drop 40 % to sell is the highest spec house I have ever seen.
    5 Were built to the customers' requirements on newly purchased plots.
    6 Were owned and then sold by people I know personally so I know what the asking price was and what they eventually sold for. I am not relying on what an agent claims.

Warwick

Danny
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Joined: Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:37 pm
Location: Vamos

Re: Lawyer - anybody knows him?

Postby Danny » Sat May 20, 2017 4:33 pm

You hear all sorts of stories on what people say they've sold their house for, we know what they want to sell it for but what they actually do sell it for is probably something else. Our near neighbours husbands owns a real estate business in Rethymon who told me a while ago that properties they had managed to sell they'd reduced the price by about 30-40% and in one or two properties as far as 50 %

Kilkis
Posts: 8546
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Lawyer - anybody knows him?

Postby Kilkis » Sat May 20, 2017 8:30 pm

That fits with my own experience, Danny, and all official figures and reports. Obviously each property is individual so there will always be variations.

Warwick

mouche
Posts: 537
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:43 pm

Re: Lawyer - anybody knows him?

Postby mouche » Sun May 21, 2017 8:45 am

Kilkis wrote:
You do like to obfuscate the debate Mouche.
Warwick


Rule 1; Warwick is always right
Rule 2; If Wawrick is wrong see rule 1.

Have a nice day!

Kilkis
Posts: 8546
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Lawyer - anybody knows him?

Postby Kilkis » Sun May 21, 2017 9:33 am

You seem obsessed with who is right or wrong, Mouche. There is no right or wrong. There is no competition. My personal experience is my personal experience. Your personal experience is your personal experience. I describe my personal experience. You describe your personal experience. People read the information and make up their own minds. My personal experience agrees with official government figures and all published reports. Your personal experience is the opposite of official government figures and all published reports. C'est la vie as the English say.

Warwick

Guy M
Posts: 196
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:20 pm
Location: Kalamitsi Alexandrou

Re: Lawyer - anybody knows him?

Postby Guy M » Sun May 21, 2017 11:44 am

This thread has morphed into a conversation beloved of people in England: 'how much have I made on my house' - although the English are now all worried any unearned profit will be sucked up by a dementia tax when they die. Surely, a house is a place to live and enjoy for what it is - take pleasure from having somewhere in a beautiful place such as Crete now and leave speculation for the stock market or horse racing.

Kilkis
Posts: 8546
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Lawyer - anybody knows him?

Postby Kilkis » Sun May 21, 2017 12:37 pm

I agree that it has suffered severe thread drift, Guy. Personally, under normal circumstances, I have no interest at all in what my house is worth because my intention is to live in it until I finally peg out. After that I don't care. Unfortunately Brexit presents the risk that I might be forced to care what my house is worth if I lose the right to reside in Greece. I don't think it will happen but I can't rule it out. It is not something I am concerned about at the moment but I am aware of the possibility so it does tend to provoke me to take at least a passing interest in the housing market. Obviously I am completely stupid to even think about it because I will be able to sell it within a couple of days and get far more for it than I paid back in 2005.

Warwick

Guy M
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Location: Kalamitsi Alexandrou

Re: Lawyer - anybody knows him?

Postby Guy M » Sun May 21, 2017 2:06 pm

Warwick, that's a good reason for thinking, in passing at least, about house prices in Crete. I've always assumed our house (which we bought in 2000 - I have no idea what prices are like now in comparison) will be nearly impossible to sell, so the only thing we can do is enjoy it while we are alive and able to get to it easily - though my wife did get an Irish passport straight after the referendum so at least one of us can enjoy it in two years' time.


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