Cash & ATM withdrawals to be taxed?

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Carolina
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Cash & ATM withdrawals to be taxed?

Postby Carolina » Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:06 pm

Greek banks (or troika?) propose tax on cash withdrawals.

Greek banks have proposed a tax on cash withdrawals so that Greeks make more electronic transactions as a measure to curb tax evasion.
Interbank electronic transactions also cost between 3 and 6 euro regardless of amount, so that if these proposals are adopted, the consumer is going to lose out whether he uses cash or not.

No words for this if it goes ahead...

http://apokoronasnews.gr/greek-banks-pr ... thdrawals/

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Re: Cash & ATM withdrawals to be taxed?

Postby filippos » Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:52 pm

It's all about the "elite's" drive towards a "cashless" society. If all transactions are electronic governments can track everything you spend, they can steal your money by imposing negative interest rates or rescue banks with "bail ins" as they've already done in Cyprus. Several governments, using anti-corruption" rhetoric as justification have withdrawn higher denomination banknotes, claiming it will make life more difficult for criminals. India has recently done exactly that with 500 and 1000 rupee notes (1000 rupees is, I think about $15). The US government announced that they won't print any more $500 dollar notes so they'll gradually go out of circulation. Some central banks already "offer" negative interest rates.

It's typical "nudge" policy: why are banks and governments encouraging things like contactless card payments? Ever more banks and post offices closing branches especially in rural areas so people wanting cash have to travel to get it but, of course, new ATMs appear where the branches close. I don't swallow the claim that the UK government/central bank has put tallow (animal fat) into the new £5 notes in a deliberate attempt to deter vegetarians from using them but it seems that some vegans have been protesting and demanding they be withdrawn.

Now, here in Greece there's a proposal to steal people's money by taxing cash. The ploy in many countries seems to be to make it ever easier to use plastic and electronic banking and more difficult to use cash so that gradually the use of cash disappears. Once that happens the "elite" will have total control. Of course, there are unintended repercussions. In India people are already returning to barter and those with money are exchanging it for gold and silver - but paying an inflated price because, it seems, the dealers have government connections and can exchange the withdrawn high denomination notes for full value.

Now, where did I put that tinfoil hat?

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Re: Cash & ATM withdrawals to be taxed?

Postby Kilkis » Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:56 pm

This is another example of a world wide attack on physical cash. Governments everywhere want to be able to control your money. In particular they see savings as a piggy-bank that they can raid to help solve their debt problem, e.g. through negative interest rates. Obviously if banks imposed negative interest on deposit/savings accounts people would be inclined to withdraw their money as physical cash and store it in safe deposit boxes/under the mattress. Governments would like to ban physical cash altogether so that you can either accept your savings being eroded or spend them. They don't really care which you do. This is not conspiracy theory. It has been discussed in serious papers published, for example, by the Bank of England and by Ken Rogoff, who is a professor of economics at Harvard University and the former chief economist of the International Monetary Fund. More importantly, his name is frequently mentioned as a possible nominee for a seat on the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve. Several countries have already introduced negative interest rates and the courts have upheld decisions by banks to refuse to allow financial organisations to withdraw their deposits as cash.

India recently made 1,000 and 500 rupee notes no longer legal tender overnight with no warning and no discussion in parliament. These are not high value notes, being worth around £12 and £6 respectively. The idea is sold as fighting corruption and I am sure the same argument will be used in Greece. In other countries it is being sold as fighting crime. The logic goes like this. Criminals largely deal in cash. It is easier for them to move cash with large value notes. Ban large value notes and it will help to stop criminal activity. Sounds reasonable? Look at it the other way. Imagine yourself as a drug dealer stood on a street corner waiting for your first customer and reading the Daily Mail. You read that the government has banned £50 notes. "Oh no!" you cry, "How can I continue selling drugs if there are no £50 notes? I must go out and find a respectable job." Now does it sound reasonable?

The myth of "democracy" is being used to erode your freedom. Whatever you think, government is not democratic. The clue to the purpose of government is in the name. It is to govern. The purpose is to control the masses in order to protect the interests of the rich and powerful. Always has been and always will be. Exactly who the rich and powerful are evolves over time but they are always there. In Europe and the UK, once it was the monarchy. That evolved into the aristocracy and subsequently into the people at the top of big business. The methodology also changes. Controlling people by convincing them that they have a free choice, by allowing them to choose which group of people control them, is no different than controlling them by force except it is more cost effective. Fear still plays an important part. Originally it was direct fear that the monarch could execute you if you opposed him. Today it is indirect fear that, "Unfortunately we have to take away your freedoms to protect you against the threat of terrorism". In reality the number of people killed by bee/wasp stings in the UK over a decade is about the same as the number of people killed by terrorists. The number of people killed by the police is between 5 and 20 times higher.

I am sure many will say, "If you haven't done anything wrong you don't have anything to fear". Ask the Jews who were herded into the death camps what they had done wrong? Governments are not benign. Governments are, by their nature, intrinsically evil. Some are more evil than others but all are evil. Don't give up without a fight.

Warwick

PS I must have been typing this at the same time as Filippos but I left it unedited even though it repeats some information.

bobscott
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Re: Cash & ATM withdrawals to be taxed?

Postby bobscott » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:01 pm

So what's your alternative to 'government' Warwick? Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

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Re: Cash & ATM withdrawals to be taxed?

Postby Peter W » Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:06 pm

Blimey Warwick, that’s a massive dose of paranoia, I am reminded it’s the mushroom season here, maybe you have been enjoying the hallucinatory variety.

I must declare I have enjoyed reading your posts over the last 4 years or so and as a lifelong socialist I empathise with the views expressed in your most recent post but I fear you don’t progress your argument by suggesting that all governments are intrinsically evil and using the industrial extermination of Jewish people by Adolf Hitler’s Nazi Party as an example, particularly as Adolf Hitler headed a dictatorship and not a democratically elected government. Evil may be a by-product of government but I don’t believe that most governments set out with evil intent.

As I have grown older I have come to the view that people get the elected government they deserve and the recent Presidential election in America has only served to reinforce this view.

As for democracy well that’s just one way of ordering society, anyone who believe’s it to be a perfect system has clearly never taken the trouble to read a history book.

What’s the alternative? Me, I like the idea of a benign dictatorship and although we have never met I think I would be comfortable with you Warwick at the seat of government.

I guess this is unlikely to happen any time soon so in the meantime I will get on with tending my olives, drinking my wine and enjoying your interesting and provocative posts, long may they continue.

Peter

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Re: Cash & ATM withdrawals to be taxed?

Postby mouche » Thu Dec 01, 2016 7:30 pm

Paranoia is only first name! :shock:

Kilkis
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Re: Cash & ATM withdrawals to be taxed?

Postby Kilkis » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:28 pm

Peter W wrote:...particularly as Adolf Hitler headed a dictatorship and not a democratically elected government...


Not quite accurate, Peter. A quote from Wikipedia:

    "Adolf Hitler's rise to power began in Germany in September 1919[a] when Hitler joined the political party known as the Deutsche Arbeiterpartei – DAP (German Workers' Party). The name was changed in 1920 to the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei – NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers' Party, commonly known as the Nazi Party)....Through the late 1920s and early 1930s, the Nazis gathered enough electoral support to become the largest political party in the Reichstag,...President Paul von Hindenburg had already appointed Hitler as Chancellor on 30 January 1933 after a series of parliamentary elections and associated backroom intrigues."

The order of the statements has been changed from the original article to present them in a coherent time line. Hitler was elected to power through a normal democratic process. He then took total control and became a dictator. Having a democratic process does not preclude someone with extreme views coming to power. Making sure that they don't have the tools at their disposal to take total control is some level of protection.

I only used the Nazi example to highlight the fallacy of "If you haven't done anything wrong you don't have anything to fear", not as a general example of evil. People seem to associate the word "evil" only with extremes like Hitler and Pol Pot. I don't. Governments throughout the world that don't fit anywhere near that category of evil are taking away citizens rights on an almost daily basis on the slightest pretext. To me they are still evil.

If I had been writing on a forum for ex-pats in India a couple of weeks ago and posted that the Indian government was going to make large denomination notes illegal I am sure I would have been regarded as paranoid. I wonder if those ex-pats would still regard me as paranoid today? Typically in our so called democracies you don't suddenly see tanks on the streets. Your freedom is leached away one drop at a time and you don't notice. Ask Nicky Wishart, the twelve year old boy who was taken out of class by anti-terrorist police, interrogated without a parent or appropriate adult present and threatened with arrest. His horrendous crime that warranted this action? He organised a protest about the closure of youth clubs in his area due to cuts in council funding. The protest was going to take place outside David Cameron's constituency office. What happened to free speech, the right to protest and the right to free assembly. Not applicable if the anti terrorist squad don't like it.

Warwick

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Re: Cash & ATM withdrawals to be taxed?

Postby moved 2 crete » Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:42 pm

with you all the way Warwick but answer the question, what is the correct democratic alteranative? :?
Dave H

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Re: Cash & ATM withdrawals to be taxed?

Postby Kilkis » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:10 pm

I don't have an answer to that I'm afraid. All we can probably do is to limit the powers of the government and be constantly vigilant about the erosion of freedom. A "benign dictatorship" is an abstract concept that I don't think can exist. My concern is that people too readily accept whatever the government tells them or aren't aware of what the government is doing.

For example, were you aware that in the UK the Investigatory Powers Act was passed this week? Do you know what powers it gives to the government regarding all electronic data? Do you know who can access your data? Obviously "If you haven't done anything wrong you don't have anything to fear" or do you? For example it gives the government the power to force any software company to introduce back-doors into its products that the government can then use to access your activity. How long before a hacker discovers the back-door and uses it to access your data for some nefarious purpose? It forces ISPs to keep a record of your on-line activity and make it available to the government. That's a pretty massive data base to attract hackers. Do you know what information is being held? Have you any right to find out what information is being held? Who is liable if you suffer loss because the information was not held securely enough? That's just one recent example.

Warwick

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Re: Cash & ATM withdrawals to be taxed?

Postby Peter W » Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:35 pm

Oh dear, and I promised myself I wouldn't get into a hair-splitting debate about democracy with someone whose views I basically share on a forum headlined 'Cash & ATM withdrawals to be taxed' but rather than post an edited version of a lengthy Wikipedia entry it may have been preferable to direct readers to the full Wikipedia entry and let forum readers decide for themselves if the Jewish pogrom in Nazi Germany was the act of a democratically elected government or a dictatorship. For anyone interested here's the link:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_rise_to_power#Chancellor_to_dictator

Peter

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Re: Cash & ATM withdrawals to be taxed?

Postby Kilkis » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:40 am

Peter W wrote:...but rather than post an edited version of a lengthy Wikipedia entry it may have been preferable to direct readers to the full Wikipedia entry and let forum readers decide for themselves if the Jewish pogrom in Nazi Germany was the act of a democratically elected government or a dictatorship...


If you look at my post, Peter, you will discover that is exactly what I did. Try clicking on the words original article in my post. Your link is exactly the same article that I linked in my post. It was already there for everybody to read. I always link sources whenever I can. My editing didn't change the meaning in any way. I simply rearranged a lot of disjointed statements into a coherent time-line. My quotes are from the beginning of the article dealing with how Hitler came to power originally, i.e. through a democratic process. Your link simply jumps to further down the article to how he moved from a democratically elected leader to being a dictator. I don't deny that he became a dictator. I was trying to make the point that democracy is no protection against ending up with a dictator. If you take Greece as an example it became a dictatorship under the Junta by force of arms. The Colonels mounted a successful coup and installed themselves as a dictatorship. There's not much a democratic process can do about that. Hitler, however, became Chancellor through a democratic process. Many governments today are eroding people's freedoms at an alarming rate. That includes America, the UK and Greece. All democratically elected. Surely that is what the thread is about?

Warwick

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Re: Cash & ATM withdrawals to be taxed?

Postby Phild » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:28 am

moved 2 crete wrote:with you all the way Warwick but answer the question, what is the correct democratic alteranative? :?


There is no democratic alternative. Democracy so often gets things wrong.

Democracy is the reason we're in this mess in the first place - the reason we have Brexit and Trump - seemingly, the reason Germany had Hitler.

Personally, I believe that each person should pass an exam before they are allowed to vote - they should have lessons in critical thinking and what it means to be a citizen. People so often vote without thinking of the consequences of their actions, and as you can see in most countries, politicians are adept at making turkeys vote for christmas (basically by lying and fear-mongering, with the backing of an elite-owned media - but since there is no recourse available to combat this, they can get away with it)

I tend to agree with Chomsky, who seems to advocate anarcho-syndicalism, but I'm not sure how that would work in the real world, where we have people who are just contrary for reasons of 'being contrary', and 1 in a 100 who are just sociopathic. Anarcho-syndicalism seems to require everyone to be sensible and rational.

Failing this, I've always believed in the benign dictatorship scenario, and while I respect Warwick, I would prefer Chomsky to be that dictator. :-)

Going back to the original post - I see the taxing of cash withdrawals as a short-term goal, finally resulting in the withdrawal of physical money, and the imposition of electronic transfers. This is the way governments want money to go - everything will be traceable (and taxable).

In the short-term, however, this policy will be bad for banks and the government - before the measures come into force, people will withdraw as much as they can and there will be a 'wash' of cash which will circulate in a grey economy, which will be hidden to the government. (Tax receipts will actually go *down*) They will only have sight of money that has to be paid as salaries into bank accounts, but not the grey money. Banks will lose because their capital reserves will decrease.

Given that this will occur in Greece - how many people keep very much money in the bank, in the first place? How many Greek people actually have that much money? (I'm betting on a very small fraction)

As usual, I see this headline as the political classes "putting an idea out there, and seeing how much reaction there is to it", before deciding whether it is implementable or not. This seems to happen a lot in Greece, but it's gaining momentum in most other countries too.
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Phil
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Re: Cash & ATM withdrawals to be taxed?

Postby Kilkis » Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:20 am

Phild wrote:... while I respect Warwick, I would prefer Chomsky to be that dictator. :-)...


Don't worry, Phil, I wouldn't want the job at any price and nobody is going to offer it to me, although I do worry about the Douglas Adams hypothesis. I also tend towards preferring the concept of anarchy but unfortunately the people who actively promote it do seem to have got it a bad name.

Warwick

PS Who has been spreading this vicious rumour that I am benign?

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Re: Cash & ATM withdrawals to be taxed?

Postby Jason64 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:23 pm

The myth of "democracy" is being used to erode your freedom. Whatever you think, government is not democratic. The clue to the purpose of government is in the name. It is to govern. The purpose is to control the masses in order to protect the interests of the rich and powerful. Always has been and always will be.

Couldn't have it better myself

Jason64
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Re: Cash & ATM withdrawals to be taxed?

Postby Jason64 » Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:23 pm

.....'PUT' it better......


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