Monitoring Progress

For discussion, news, comments, questions and information about Crete & Greece.
Kilkis
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Monitoring Progress

Postby Kilkis » Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:01 pm

For those who like to follow Erdogan's drive to take Turkey back to the days of the Ottoman Empire, it looks like he has now reached 1996 on his journey according to this ekathimerini article?

Warwick

Maud
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Re: Monitoring Progress

Postby Maud » Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:13 pm

Let's just hope he doesn't take it back to 1913 Warwick!

mouche
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Re: Monitoring Progress

Postby mouche » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:17 pm

Kilkis wrote:For those who like to follow Erdogan's drive to take Turkey back to the days of the Ottoman Empire, it looks like he has now reached 1996 on his journey according to this ekathimerini article?

Warwick


Is this "newspaper" and/or journalist on your list of reliable sources? :roll:

Kilkis
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Re: Monitoring Progress

Postby Kilkis » Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:25 pm

Absolutely not, Mouche. I trust Greek media as much, or rather as little, as I trust media anywhere. However, I have a problem with Greek related events that don't attract wider attention. I don't have access to a range of alternative sources as I do with UK and USA. Kathimerini is a right of centre, conservative, pro New Democracy broadsheet. I would guess the nearest equivalent in the UK would be the Daily Telegraph. I take that into account when reading its editorial.

In this case the article was simply reporting a "fact" not an editorial opinion. The issuing of the NOTAM was reported in other Greek media so I presume the "fact" is real. I could of course be wrong. Perhaps Turkey didn't issue a NOTAM? If you believe that, I would be interested in your sources.

I made the post because there is a steadily increasing tension between Turkey and Greece. Relations between Greece and Turkey are never wonderful but they are probably as bad now as they have been at any time in the last twenty years. I happen to know the General who was Chief of Staff of all the Greek forces at the time of the Imia crisis so I have some independent knowledge of what went on back in 1996. It was not handled well by the Greek government and I cannot imagine the current Greek government handling the present tension any better. That should be of concern to everybody living in Greece.

Warwick

Maud
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Re: Monitoring Progress

Postby Maud » Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:26 pm

[quote="Kilkis"] I have some independent knowledge of what went on back in 1996. It was not handled well by the Greek government and I cannot imagine the current Greek government handling the present tension any better. That should be of concern to everybody living in Greece.

Warwick[/quote]

Absolutely correct Warwick. My comment above was not intended to be flippant. I think these are worrying times. Having someone like Erdogan in charge of a country that has a massive military force in itself is a problem, let alone the obvious hostility he is showing towards Greece, and even the EU at the moment.

I also read Ekathimerini (two articles in it today re the problems with Turkey) because it is one of the few papers I have access to in English. - I am very slow and inaccurate reading things in Greek! I never believe everything I read in the papers.....just as I never believe everything a politician says......but I try to 'balance' any information I find by using other sources as well Mouche. Nothing is perfect, but we all have to use our own common sense when doing research in to an article. I am sure you do the same.

Istronian
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Re: Monitoring Progress

Postby Istronian » Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:34 am

Kilkis wrote: I happen to know the General who was Chief of Staff of all the Greek forces at the time of the Imia crisis so I have some independent knowledge of what went on back in 1996. It was not handled well by the Greek government and I cannot imagine the current Greek government handling the present tension any better. Warwick


It is hard to handle a crisis well when you have no support from so called friends.

I remember reading that although Greece was a member of the EU at the time the EU did nothing to help Greece or to help resolve the situation. So much for the EU claiming to help maintain the peace in Europe!

Both countries were members of NATO who also did nothing and I think you will find that NATO was "sympathetic" to the Turkish side.

In the end it was America who acted as go between to resolve the crisis to protect their own interests.(They had bases in both countries.)

Ian

mouche
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Re: Monitoring Progress

Postby mouche » Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:26 am

Kilkis wrote:
I happen to know the General who was Chief of Staff of all the Greek forces at the time of the Imia crisis so I have some independent knowledge of what went on back in 1996.
Warwick


From an independent source? :roll:

Kilkis
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Re: Monitoring Progress

Postby Kilkis » Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:40 am

I agree, Ian. When it comes to resolving an actual conflict the EU is impotent and has shown itself to be so many times.

NATO has no protocol for resolving conflict between NATO members. The treaty only deals with how they will respond if a member is attacked from outside. Obviously (?) NATO members are all friends so no such conflict should ever occur.

I know the USA, and by implication NATO, were more sympathetic to Turkey during the Cyprus crisis. At that time the cold war was still going on and they had vital listening bases in Turkey close to the Soviet border so they couldn't afford to upset Turkey. While they had important bases in Greece they were not as strategically important as the Turkish ones. I have no real information on NATO's attitude at the time of the Imia crisis. The cold war was winding down so they may have been more neutral. Today, because of the problems in Syria and Iraq they would probably swing back to supporting Turkey, at least tacitly.

Warwick

PS From a reliable source, Mouche, that is the key. From an honourable gentleman, who resigned his position as chief of staff because he believed that the way the politicians were handling the crisis was detrimental to the interests of Greece and the Greek people, and from people who knew him well. The use of the phrase "independent knowledge" refers to the fact that I obtained the information independently of any media or other second hand source. If you have some information to add to the debate why not give everybody the benefit of your thoughts instead of playground sniping. The situation in Turkey is not a joke.

SatCure
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Re: Monitoring Progress

Postby SatCure » Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:39 pm

Erdogan is playing a dangerous game. Quite apart from his conflict with Greece, he's threatening to unleash millions of migrants into the EU and he has also declared war on Syria, which means that NATO is at war with Syria, which means NATO is now at war with Russia.

Get your tin hats on, lads. It's gonna be a bumpy ride!


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