Staying In

For discussion, news, comments, questions and information about Crete & Greece.
Clio
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Staying In

Postby Clio » Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:19 pm


Guy M
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Re: Staying In

Postby Guy M » Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:43 pm

One of the reasons why the EU might offer this without expecting a reciprocal arrangement is that it might tempt the banks and other large corporates (but particularly the banks) into moving to one of the several European cities who have been trying to lure them following the referendum. Much more tempting if they can move with all their staff and not just the ones from other EU countries. The UK government would then have a hard choice: allowing continued freedom of movement by its citizens will run the risk of losing some banks' headquarters and the tax revenue they provide.

Kilkis
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Re: Staying In

Postby Kilkis » Sat Dec 10, 2016 8:39 am

I guess the devil will be in the detail. Many countries in Europe already have provision for issuing residence permits in exchange for inward investment, which in most cases includes the purchase of property. For example, in Greece a property purchase of €250,000 should get you a Greek residence permit. This article is a little old so the exact detail may have changed in some countries but it outlines the general principle. These programmes are used by non-EU citizens to gain residence in the EU so, when the UK leaves the EU, UK citizens could make use of this route without any new special deal. Obviously the amount is large but it could be viable for some people coming here to buy a house. Obviously,I doubt if many people already living here and already owning property here would be able to bring in another €250,000 if they lost their right to reside as a result of Brexit. I wonder how the government of EU countries with such schemes are going to react if the EU Brexit negotiators propose a much cheaper scheme for UK citizens? Also, if they have a scheme for UK citizens why not for other non-EU citizens? What is special about the UK once it has left the EU?

Warwick

mouche
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Re: Staying In

Postby mouche » Sat Dec 10, 2016 9:43 am

Kilkis wrote:Obviously,I doubt if many people already living here and already owning property here would be able to bring in another €250,000 if they lost their right to reside as a result of Brexit.
Warwick


Who would/could stop them from selling their property to a company abroad (which they happen to own/control) and rebuy a property in Greece?

Kilkis
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Re: Staying In

Postby Kilkis » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:21 am

Nobody at all, Mouche. How many companies do you own abroad? Personally I don't own one. I only know one UK ex-pat living in Crete who owns a company abroad. I am sure there must be others but it is not the norm so it is not going to provide a solution for the majority.

Obviously it doesn't have to be to a company they own. In theory anybody could sell their property to an individual and buy another one for any reason at all. To benefit from the residency through inward investment route though they would need to sell to someone outside Greece and have the money paid outside Greece so they could bring it back in. That rules out a large junk of the market. They would incur all the costs of selling and all the costs of buying again. Yes, it is a theoretical solution but not a very practical one.

Warwick

Guy M
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Re: Staying In

Postby Guy M » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:25 am

People retiring to continental Europe are a minor part of this proposal. It's aimed at large corporations and their people who could otherwise not move so easily en masse. It will be connected with lack of access to the single market by UK businesses in an easy form. It's aimed at scooping up British talent - a first salvo in the trade war that the referendum has set off.

Kilkis
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Re: Staying In

Postby Kilkis » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:47 am

Guy M wrote:People retiring to continental Europe are a minor part of this proposal...


I agree, Guy, but they are probably a majority of the people on this forum.

I think it is also important to recognise that some countries in Europe, although not all, have a very different attitude to immigration from that which appears to be prevalent in the UK so they would welcome maintaining it even if the UK doesn't. The UK government seems to have a stance that they mustn't concede anything because the EU will reciprocate. In reality you might find, and I stress might, many countries in the EU taking the attitude, "Great. You send us back all the doctors, nurses, engineers etc that we paid to train and that are now working in the UK and we will also welcome any of yours that want to come as well. Obviously not the poorer countries but certainly the richer ones that struggle to fill jobs as much as the UK does.

Warwick

Guy M
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Re: Staying In

Postby Guy M » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:37 pm

Indeed, the majority on this forum very likely are those retiring.

It's the big businesses and their skilled workers that the EU is interested in attracting, and they may pitch the final rules such that it is these companies and workers that are covered and not everyone else (including those on this forum). Governments do things for a reason - they're not in the habit of offering something up for nothing.

I think this is a very skilful proposal: remaining EU countries get their own skilled workers back (we have a Greek dentist in Cheltenham, for example) and they hope to get some big businesses (and their tax receipts) - and the EU knows it won't get the UK's builders, plumbers, servers of coffee and fruit pickers as there aren't that many of them and they certainly don't want to work for lower EU wages. The UK loses twice: fewer doing building, plumbing, serving coffee and picking fruit, and lower tax receipts from the brain drain that more easily results from enabling businesses to go to the EU.

john4d
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Re: Staying In

Postby john4d » Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:14 pm

Surely it's part of the EU's 'Master Plan' to subjugate the individual member counties and turn the EU itself into a super state? It already has "Ambassadors", formerly a role representing their country in another. The EU turns up at the G8, a meeting of the 8 most powerful economies in the world, yet the EU produces nothing and has no GDP. Finally it has an EU passport signifying that the EU is a country, which of course it isn't. This is just the next stage offering people EU 'citizenship', regardless as to their true nationality, dressed up as a measure to help Ex EU state citizens a helping hand.

John
There's no such thing as a bad taste joke

Kilkis
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Re: Staying In

Postby Kilkis » Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:05 pm

It's only an EU passport in the sense that it has the words European Union on the front cover. It also has the words United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland on the cover in a bigger font. Inside it has the following statement:

    Her Britannic Majesty's Secretary of State Requests and Requires in the Name of Her Majesty all those whom it may concern to allow the bearer to pass freely without let or hindrance and to afford the bearer such assistance and protection as may be necessary.

It doesn't say "The EU Commissioner Request and Requires ....". It is issued in the UK by a UK agency on behalf of the UK government not in Brussels by a Commission agency on behalf of the Commission. The Commission does not have the right or authority to issue passports on behalf of any member state or of its own. When you enter the USA, for example, I can pretty much guarantee you that if you declared that you were a Citizen of the EU on your entry form you would not get in.

Also, as far as I can see, the idea is to grant residency rights not to issue people with passports.

To say the EU produces nothing and doesn't have a GDP is nonsense. It is true that "the Commission" doesn't have a GDP but the term EU doesn't mean "the Commission". The EU simply denotes all its member states. You could equally argue that the USA doesn't have a GDP only the individual federal states or Germany doesn't have a GDP only its independent federal states. Whenever the term "X GDP" is used it is simply the aggregate economic activity of the area specified by X. It is just as valid to talk about World GDP, or Asian GDP or South American GDP etc as it is to talk about Indian GDP or Australian GDP.

Warwick

Tim
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Re: Staying In

Postby Tim » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:14 pm

To be fair, the linked article to the one in the original post explains why this is unlikely to ever happen:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-citizenship-opt-in-plan-explained-guy-verhofstadt-a7465911.html

Tim

Kilkis
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Re: Staying In

Postby Kilkis » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:43 pm

A quote from that article:

    "It seems doubtful. The EU would be unlikely to impose this plan without the consent of the British Government, and the Government would be unlikely to agree to it because it would politically enrage the eurosceptics that Theresa May must keep on side."

I am not sure why this proposal would "politically enrage the eurosceptics"? This is being proposed as a stand alone deal. It is not in exchange for anything. They get everything they wanted. Those who disagreed with them get a bit of what they wanted. Sounds win-win to me. I think the more likely reason it will fail is:

    "...if Brits can have their cake and eat it by leaving the bloc but keeping the advantages of EU membership, why wouldn’t others do so? For EU leaders in the Council wanting to stop the collapse of the EU it may not be something they would consider for this reason."

Warwick

Tim
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Re: Staying In

Postby Tim » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:59 pm

I completely agree with that, Warwick. I think for all their laying down the law about what the UK can and can't expect from the Brexit process, there are some very worried eurocrats out there who see the beginnings of the whole project unravelling. I believe an attempt will be made next week to save the Monte dei Paschi bank in Italy, which could have unforeseen consequences for the EMU.

It's also worth noting that, from more or less parity after the referendum, the pound is back up to 1.19 euro, a sign perhaps that the underlying strength of the UK economy far outstrips that of most of the countries in the failed or failing EU project.

Tim

Kilkis
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Re: Staying In

Postby Kilkis » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:29 pm

Tim wrote:...I believe an attempt will be made next week to save the Monte dei Paschi bank in Italy, which could have unforeseen consequences for the EMU...


It will certainly be another test as to whether the rules have any meaning or not. The rules about bank insolvency were changed on 1 January 2016 in accordance with a G20 ruling issued, with little fanfare or publicity, at the Melbourne meeting. Governments are no longer allowed to bail out insolvent banks. Instead they are supposed to bail in the creditors, i.e the creditors are the losers not the tax payer. This was done in Cyprus but now it is the rule.

Italy is a little odd. In most countries the creditors, who hold bank bonds, are major financial institutions like hedge funds and big investment banks. I suspect most people would agree that these are mature, well informed investors and if they take a loss they have nobody to blame but themselves. In Italy, however, the majority of Monte dei Paschi's bonds are held by retail investors. What does the government do? Does it stick to the rules and allow millions of pensioners to lose their savings or does it break the rules and bail the bank out with tax payers money? An interesting conundrum given the state of the Italian government having just lost a referendum on constitution change, by quite a big majority, and its Prime Minister. It is not just an Italian problem. It could have knock on effects for many major investment banks.

Warwick

filippos
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Re: Staying In

Postby filippos » Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:36 pm

I suspect Deutsch Bank will be fairly close behind Monte dei Paschi: that will give Frau Merkel a headache.


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