It just makes you weep

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YoMo2
Posts: 892
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:07 am
Location: Milatos, Lasithi

It just makes you weep

Postby YoMo2 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:49 am

Another one from Kathimerini regarding failure to collect taxes. Illegal wine sales!!!

http://www.ekathimerini.com/214701/article/ekathimerini/business/bulk-of-wine-consumed-in-greece-illegal--and-excise-tax-not-helping

And they have a register of all producers......... It does make you want to cry. Inept or what?

Andrew
"It's all in the implementation"

paul g
Posts: 89
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:20 pm
Location: Nr. Kato Gouves

Re: It just makes you weep

Postby paul g » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:04 pm

Every time a new tax is introduced or an existing one increased, the take is always lower than expected, when will they learn?

Kilkis
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Location: Near Chania

Re: It just makes you weep

Postby Kilkis » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:18 pm

I think the closing paragraph is probably the explanation. The finance ministry introduces new taxes simply to satisfy the budgetary demands of the creditors. Since there is no past experience, they can base the revenue to be gained from this new tax purely on previous sales and the tax rate. They know full well that it will never really be collected but by the time that becomes clear they will have already passed the review and derived whatever benefits they expect from it. Everything in government economics today is simply "extend and pretend" as Varoufakis quite correctly described it. Not just in Greece but throughout the world.

Warwick

YoMo2
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Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:07 am
Location: Milatos, Lasithi

Re: It just makes you weep

Postby YoMo2 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:28 pm

So we just carry on playing stupid games for ever?

Andrew
"It's all in the implementation"

Kilkis
Posts: 8776
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: It just makes you weep

Postby Kilkis » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:01 pm

Probably. At least until the whole Ponzi scheme comes crashing down.

Warwick

margarita
Posts: 420
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 9:36 pm
Location: Kalyves area

Re: It just makes you weep

Postby margarita » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:42 pm


bobscott
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Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:36 pm
Location: Kokkino Horio

Re: It just makes you weep

Postby bobscott » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:34 am

margarita wrote:There's a tax idea here

http://apokoronasnews.gr/portugal-homes-with-sea-views-face-higher-tax-to-improve-fiscal-outlook/

they could borrow from the Portuguese.


Interesting Maggie, but in reality it already works, to an extent. When we bought our land and built, (12 years ago now) there was quite a prolonged discussion between the notary and our lawyer about how far we were from the sea, because the (in those days) one-off land tax was based on distance from the sea. I think they eventually decided on half a km, as the crow flies. Not being a crow, I can't get there in under 2.75km, but there you go! Καλά χριστούγεννα! Βob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

mouche
Posts: 555
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:43 pm

Re: It just makes you weep

Postby mouche » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:35 am

To me it's only fair if the real estate tax is based on true market value and in this respect the view; good, bad or not at all, to a great extent reflect the value and thus the fair tax to be paid. I note others disagree with this.

Kilkis
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Location: Near Chania

Re: It just makes you weep

Postby Kilkis » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:42 pm

Well if you look at the web site where you can calculate your own property tax you will see that to some extent this already happens.

For example, if you take a 100 sqm property less than 4 years old in an area with a Τιμή ζώνης of €501 to €750, i.e. the band most of us probably live in, and no frontages onto a town road, the property tax increases from €343 for a basement apartment to €360.50 for a 6th floor or above. A house is a bit less at €357, the same as a 4th or 5th floor apartment.

If we now stick to the house case and increase the Τιμή ζώνης to over €5001, i.e. the top band, the property tax increases from €357 to €1,657.5. Thus living in an expensive area has a much bigger effect on the tax than the view, which is about all you gain from being higher up. Since I am pretty sure that living in an expensive area has a much bigger effect on the market value than a difference in view in the same area, the way the property tax varies does reflect differences in market value. It is probably not perfect but trying to assess the market value is not perfect, especially in Greece*.

Increasing the age of the property gradually reduces the property tax and I believe that also reflects how property values tend to fall with age in Greece in the absence of any inflationary effects.

Increasing the number of frontages onto a town road slightly increases the tax, for example from €357 with no frontages to €360.57 for one frontage and €364.14 for two or more frontages. Presumably a house with more frontages is regarded as slightly more valuable.

No property tax system is perfect. Greece's system does at least follow the general principle that higher value properties pay more tax even if it is not based directly on market value. Also the biggest effect, as everywhere, is location, location, location.

Warwick

* It is very common in Greece for property simply to be passed on to a family member with no actual purchase taking place. Parents still normally transfer ownership of their property to their children before they die and, prior to changes in inheritance tax, it was almost universal. With only a relatively small percentage of properties changing hands through purchase, compared to what happens in other countries, assessing market value is more difficult. That is one of the reasons Greece tends to use an objective value based on the factors discussed above.

Tim
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Re: It just makes you weep

Postby Tim » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:14 pm

I can see the sea and the local cemetery from my house. :?

Tim

mouche
Posts: 555
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Re: It just makes you weep

Postby mouche » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:26 pm

If a particular area is considered expensive this normally has to with location, location and location and in this respect a view is of some importance.

Kilkis
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Location: Near Chania

Re: It just makes you weep

Postby Kilkis » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:14 pm

Tim wrote:I can see the sea and the local cemetery from my house. :?

Tim


A perfect environment in my opinion.

I am sure you are correct, Mouche, but only up to a point. I am sure that a property in Vouliagmeni that has a sea view will be a bit more expensive than a comparable property that doesn't. Similarly a property in Kalyves that has a sea view will be a bit more expensive than a comparable property that doesn't. I am also completely certain that both properties in Vouliagmeni will be a hell of a lot more expensive than both properties in Kalyves. As far as I can see that is reflected in the property tax calculation without explicitly considering the actual view of every house in Greece and making an assessment that could only ever be subjective of the relative merits of every single view. There are too many aspects to make that a practical proposition.

When I lived in Kilkis I lived in an apartment about 100 m from my boss. Obviously any general location aspects of the price of the two properties would be identical. His apartment was on the top floor of a five floor block. Consequently he could sit on his balcony and have very good views over the town, surrounding fields and the mountains between Greece and Bulgaria. I lived in a ground floor apartment next to a road. I could sit on my balcony and see the plants in the garden and hold conversations with neighbours walking past. I actually preferred my location to his. He obviously preferred his location otherwise he wouldn't have chosen it. So how do you make an objective judgement on our relative property taxes on the basis of the view?

Warwick

bobscott
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Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:36 pm
Location: Kokkino Horio

Re: It just makes you weep

Postby bobscott » Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:59 am

Tim wrote:I can see the sea and the local cemetery from my house. :?

Tim


A 'watery grave' situation then.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Tim
Posts: 275
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:41 pm
Location: Worcester/Sitia
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Re: It just makes you weep

Postby Tim » Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:21 pm

bobscott wrote:
Tim wrote:I can see the sea and the local cemetery from my house. :?

Tim


A 'watery grave' situation then.


A 'watery gravy' if I'm cooking, Bob. :wink:

A Merry Christmas to all!

Tim

Maud
Posts: 447
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:46 pm
Location: S.W. England/ S.W. Crete.

Re: It just makes you weep

Postby Maud » Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:17 pm

καλά Χριστούγεννα to you as well Tim.......and to everyone else on here.

Re taxing a property, obviously the value of the property is the fairest method to base taxation on. It is a 'tried and tested' way and has proved successful in many countries. Prices are primarily driven by supply and demand. If you live in a town/city the house prices will be highest in the more 'desirable' areas. (Usually the most convenient ones for access to work etc and the most attractive areas to live in). If you live in the country, prices are still dictated by access to a certain extent, but the position and views of the property might be more important to people. One of the biggest factors re price, wherever you are, will be the availability of good property. - Out home in the UK is in a National Park, and because of building restrictions, houses here immediately command a higher price in comparison to ones out side of the NP. This is because new building is very restricted making availability of property limited.

As Kilkis mentions, it is all about personal choice as to where we live, and very subjective, but supply and demand of good property will always be the over-riding factor when it comes to price...and therefore taxation.


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