Associate membership proposal

For discussion, news, comments, questions and information about Crete & Greece.
footscapes
Posts: 395
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 8:37 am
Location: Crete no longer!

Re: Associate membership proposal

Postby footscapes » Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:35 pm

bobscott wrote:......... someone as august as the President of the European Commission .............


August indeed, and with a fan base in the most surprising places.

The man is a prize pi!!ock.

Paul

YoMo2
Posts: 892
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:07 am
Location: Milatos, Lasithi

Re: Associate membership proposal

Postby YoMo2 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:00 pm

One would have to seriously question his sanity if he thinks he is popular in Greece. We already know he is a liar. Now it appears he is bonkers too.

Andrew
"It's all in the implementation"

TweetTweet
Posts: 235
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:35 am

Re: Associate membership proposal

Postby TweetTweet » Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:19 pm

Warwick said:

We are rapidly reaching a time when everybody alive will have never experienced a war in Europe.


I'm not sure that is reality ...the so-called 3rd Balkan War only finished in 2001 ...i.e. about 16 years ago ...from time immemorial Germany has waged war ....current incarnation is the economic war.

I agree that history would show Europe has always been at war.

ScotinCrete
Posts: 250
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:56 am
Location: Gavalachori

Re: Associate membership proposal

Postby ScotinCrete » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:10 am

As Germany didn't exist until after the 1871 Franco Prussian war then blaming "time immemorial" may be stretching it a bit? France and the UK probably have as good a claim on 'who warred the most' prize.

I voted in the first UK referendum and it seemed so obvious that given Europe's history then closer economic ties were a 'good' thing. In the second one I finally decided that there were LOTS of problems but it was still better to be 'in the tent' . Unfortunately the campaigns ignored principles and concentrated on which would give them the most money so....

Kilkis
Posts: 8775
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Associate membership proposal

Postby Kilkis » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:40 am

Would you say that the general public in the UK or in most of Europe "experienced" the wars in the Balkans that followed the breakup of Yugoslavia, TweetTweet, other than the nightly broadcasts by NATO's equivalent of Lord Haw-Haw? They certainly occurred but largely affected the populations of the countries directly involved such as Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia and Kosovo.

Warwick

Phild
Posts: 163
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:01 pm
Location: Way out West

Re: Associate membership proposal

Postby Phild » Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:53 am

bobscott wrote:
Phild wrote:
The only way to redress this ridiculously unbalanced situation is to have some form of global governance, to make sure that the rich don't get any richer (do they really need to sit on all of that cash?) and the poor have something to eat every day.


I take it you're not advocating that as a serious proposition? Ideal perhaps but not a snowflake in hell's chance of coming to fruition this side of the Apocalypse. .


It's the only way things are going to get better for the vast majority of humanity. It is an ideal, yes. As long as everyone thinks it's far beyond what we can achieve, it will remain a distant prospect.
----
Phil
----

TweetTweet
Posts: 235
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:35 am

Re: Associate membership proposal

Postby TweetTweet » Sat Mar 04, 2017 2:09 pm

Kilkis wrote:Would you say that the general public in the UK or in most of Europe "experienced" the wars in the Balkans that followed the breakup of Yugoslavia, TweetTweet, other than the nightly broadcasts by NATO's equivalent of Lord Haw-Haw? They certainly occurred but largely affected the populations of the countries directly involved such as Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia and Kosovo.

Warwick


For me, experience is not finite, it has many degrees.

I lived in London for many years, when the IRA were at their most active. I worked in a building very close to the Hyde Park bombings, I heard and felt the massacre, and particularly poignant was the sound from the horses.

In 1992 the IRA let off a bomb at the bottom of the M1 motorway, Staples Corner. I lived some miles away but my front door still greatly vibrated.

From my own experience, the intervening 10 years between Hyde Park and Staples Corner was, every single day, modulated by the need to be very aware of everything – e.g. we were all encouraged to look out for suspicious packages etc. etc. Travelling to and from work on the tube became a daily exercise in creative thinking due to bomb alert(s) here there any everywhere. Going to a pub became possibly dangerous.

I left the UK in early 1994 – Greek television in those days showed the horror of what was going on in the Balkans. By virtue (of my previous experiences living in London), I believe I can say I also experienced (at some level), the awfulness of what was happening.

Many other people will have experienced similar *war* situations - there's always been stuff going on in France, Spain et al.

I’ve had periods in my life when money was so scarce that it was either food for the dog or food for me. The dog always won that …I didn’t fancy becoming dog food!

So although I didn’t directly experience the severe deprivation suffered during the 3rd Balkan War(s), the resonance was powerful.

Do you know Maslow's Pyramid (Hierarchy of Needs?

To be honest today’s generation(s) of 10 to 45 years old are so UTTERLEY UP THEIR BACKSIDES that the idea of what I consider *reality* would be a completely alien concept.

I hope the above answers your question. :D

Kilkis
Posts: 8775
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Associate membership proposal

Postby Kilkis » Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:18 pm

I was also in Greece during the wars in the ex-Yugoslavia so I also experienced what was happening through Greek media. I saw the farmers and their families and civilian trains blown to kingdom come by NATO planes flying so high that they couldn't identify their targets. I saw close up pictures of the tractors and remnants of clearly civilian bodies. At the same time I had access to UK news and could see the NATO spokesman reciting their nightly list of strategic military targets that had been destroyed that day. Mystically in the NATO report there was no civilian train on the bridge when it was hit and the farm vehicles consisting of tractors and trucks carrying agricultural produce were a military convoy.

I know one young person in the UK who foolishly went to fight as a mercenary in Croatia and got his leg blown off by a mortar shell. He experienced war in the Balkans. Indirectly his close friends experienced it when he returned a cripple but I don't know anybody else it had an impact on at all. The number of people in the UK and countries like France, Germany etc who really had any meaningful experience of the Balkan war is minute. How many UK citizens came back in body bags? My family on my mother's side came from Sheffield where it was commonly said that during World War II there was not a single family that didn't lose somebody either fighting abroad or bombed at home. That is what it means to experience a war. I am sure there are many cities that can make the same comment. It's not one sided. I have met people in Germany who lost family members in Cologne and Dresden. The number of people in the major countries of Europe that have direct memory of what war really means is dwindling fast. Nature abhors a vacuum. If Europe ceases to cooperate I fear it won't be long before it takes the opposite path.

Warwick

YoMo2
Posts: 892
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:07 am
Location: Milatos, Lasithi

Re: Associate membership proposal

Postby YoMo2 » Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:34 am

Kilkis wrote:....... If Europe ceases to cooperate I fear it won't be long before it takes the opposite path.


That's possible, but for many of us, the question is whether Europe can revert to coperation through trade without having to become a federal super state.

Andrew
"It's all in the implementation"

Kilkis
Posts: 8775
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Associate membership proposal

Postby Kilkis » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:06 am

It is certainly not necessary to move to ever closer political union in order to operate the single market and the customs union. The move to closer political union is driven by the ideals of a limited number of people in positions of power and by the Euro. I am not sure it would be possible to keep the Euro and not move towards closer political union?

People should be aware that maintaining a customs union and a single market does require common laws and regulations concerning all aspects of the single market and a supra-national court to ensure those laws and regulations are obeyed by all member states, i.e. some loss of sovereignty.

Being a member of a single market and a customs union is not the same as a trade deal. In the former goods move completely freely with no barriers, no tariffs and no paperwork. In the latter goods still go through customs checks that require paperwork, including checks to make sure incoming goods meet local regulations. The former is completely cost free for the manufacturer. The latter involves a cost for the manufacturer even if there is a zero tariff. Also, as I have said before, being a member of the customs union and the single market precludes doing independent trade deals with countries outside the union. Having a trade deal with the union does not prevent other independent trade deals being negotiated.

Warwick

bobscott
Posts: 2066
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:36 pm
Location: Kokkino Horio

Re: Associate membership proposal

Postby bobscott » Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:06 am

YoMo2 wrote:
Kilkis wrote:....... If Europe ceases to cooperate I fear it won't be long before it takes the opposite path.


That's possible, but for many of us, the question is whether Europe can revert to coperation through trade without having to become a federal super state.

Andrew


I think that's kind of where I started from when originating this thread.

Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!


Return to “General Discussion & News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: jane clayton and 11 guests