Thought we'd seen the back of him

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Guy M
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Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:20 pm
Location: Kalamitsi Alexandrou

Re: Thought we'd seen the back of him

Postby Guy M » Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:28 pm

Athenian democracy in which only the 10-15 % of the population who were property owning male citizens had the right to vote has some obvious attractions, not least of which is that it doesn't run the risk that, as history often shows, the 'will of the people' turns out to be unwise.

Kilkis
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Location: Near Chania

Re: Thought we'd seen the back of him

Postby Kilkis » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:13 pm

No, I don't think that was the main thrust of the article. The main thrust was that on the issue of Brexit parliament is trying to thwart the will of the people. The highlighted paragraph at the start of the article reads:

"Unreconciled pro-Remain MPs cynically exploiting an interpretation of Parliamentary Sovereignty to try and negate the EU Referendum result have highlighted the urgency of radical post-Brexit Parliamentary reform."

That is a complete distortion of what happened. Yes there are some MPs, especially Lib Dem and SNP, who would like to reverse the decision. That is not really a surprise since they have always held the view that the UK is better off in the EU as do the people who voted them into office at least in the case of the SNP. They were doing what they were elected to do, i.e. represent the viws of their constituents. Shocking I know but what can you do? They are a minority. The majority of MPs have accepted that the people voted to leave and so the UK will leave. That is reflected in the vote. A majority of 494 to 122 does not support the above statement.

A panel of supreme court judges ruled that, according to constitutional law, parliament had to debate triggering Article 50. They made no comment whatsoever on what form the debate should take or how MPs should vote during that debate. They were not the enemy of the people. They simply did their job of upholding constitutional law.

Debates take place in response to a motion, in this case a bill authorising the government to trigger Article 50. Brexit is a complex process with a lot of unresolved issues that were never put to a popular vote and which need discussing. The way issues get discussed in parliament is to propose amendments to the original motion. Many amendments were proposed, all were discussed and all were defeated. The MPs fulfilled their rolls perfectly.

There are many things relating to the way parliament operates that could well be reformed but I don't think the Brexit issue has anything to do with them.

For a start a first past the post voting system inhibits the emergence of new political parties, as UKIPs 4.7 million votes to elect one MP illustrates. In 2011 UK citizens were consulted in a referendum whether to reform voting to bring in a proportional representation and rejected the idea by about 2 to 1 on a 41 % turnout. There is no doubt proportional representation would make parliament more representative but obviously the people don't really want that.

I am all in favour of voting reform but simply demanding photographic IDs is not the answer. A significant proportion of the electorate do not have any form of photo ID. They don't have a passport nor a driving licence. The same problem limits the ability to demand some form of photo ID when attending for medical treatment as has been suggested. A universal ID card, as is used in Greece would solve the issue but introducing one has a pretty rocky history. I would love there to be one but not in the form previously proposed. An ID card should serve the single purpose of identifying the person. It should not carry all data that has ever been recorded about that person, which is pretty much what the previous proposal included. The idea of an ID card has never been put to a referendum but listening to people's reactions when the issue is discussed suggests that a majority would be against on the grounds of invasion of privacy.

Anybody can stand for parliament but in reality if they are not backed by one of the main parties they won't get elected. Surely the members of a political party should be able to decide who should represent them? I think Jeremy Corbyn is evidence that the party elite don't always get their own way and grass root members do influence things. Personally I think that only people who live in a constituency should be considered to represent that constituency. I think anybody should be able to put forward a CV to the membership and the membership in that constituency should then decide who should stand. I suspect, however, that if such a system was adopted it would be the person who has worked their way up through the political system in local politics and who is known to the membership that would be selected. Party members are often active in local politics more than national politics.

Warwick

Cundalini
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Location: Chania

Re: Thought we'd seen the back of him

Postby Cundalini » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:01 pm

Brian wrote:For goodness sake wise up and remove the blinkers before you fall into the Brexit abyss. The message is what matters. Blair's argument, for the most part, was irrefutable and brilliantly delivered.
Blair knew what to expect from the nay- sayers but for anyone who was prepared to hear him out he made an ironclad case for remaining in the EU.
Blair made mistakes, but he had some success. His contribution to the Northern Ireland peace process was enormous, and we in Ireland will be forever grateful to him for this contribution..
Finally , Churchill , most people will agree one of Britain's great PMs had his foibles, some serious, but when history called 'Cometh the hour, cometh the man' his war-time heroics are what is recalled now and is the great eternal legacy he bequeathed to British posterity.

We already had the man for the hour ! Nigel Farage . Toxic Tony should b$%ger off !
Cundalini wants his hand back!

peebee
Posts: 640
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:07 am
Location: Kalyves

Re: Thought we'd seen the back of him

Postby peebee » Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:00 am

Brian wrote:For goodness sake wise up and remove the blinkers before you fall into the Brexit abyss.

Methinks you are guilty of swallowing all the `project fear' propaganda.

Jeffstclair
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Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:00 pm
Location: The centre of the universe

Re: Thought we'd seen the back of him

Postby Jeffstclair » Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:38 am

I Think to be honest " project fear "was on both sides of the in -out debate .... Jeff..

peebee
Posts: 640
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:07 am
Location: Kalyves

Re: Thought we'd seen the back of him

Postby peebee » Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:39 am

Jeffstclair wrote:I Think to be honest " project fear "was on both sides of the in -out debate .... Jeff..

Probably more `Project Fear' vs `Project Promise'.

Mixos
Posts: 352
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:26 am
Location: North East Crete or S.W.England

Re: Thought we'd seen the back of him

Postby Mixos » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:47 am

Don't you mean "Project: We Don't Have a Clue What Will Happen But Let's Do It Anyway" ? :wink:

scooby
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Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:54 pm
Location: Agia Nr Chania

Re: Thought we'd seen the back of him

Postby scooby » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:36 pm

Mixos wrote:Don't you mean "Project: We Don't Have a Clue What Will Happen But Let's Do It Anyway" ? :wink:
Or, "project: We know for sure what will happen if we stay in so let's get out while we can!"
Men in suits will always make you pay.

bettyboo
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:48 am

Re: Thought we'd seen the back of him

Postby bettyboo » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:45 pm

Or as the lady says Brexit means Brexit but I'm afraid I've no idea what it will mean :) let's hope getting a permanent residence permit, if you qualify, will be as hassle free as everything else involving Government departments :) :)

Kilkis
Posts: 8773
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Thought we'd seen the back of him

Postby Kilkis » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:03 pm

I already have one BUT I am not sure a "permanent residence certificate" is a solution. It only grants permanent residence to EU citizens. Once the UK leaves the EU, UK citizens will no longer be EU citizens so the certificate will not be valid. Continued residence then rests solely on what is agreed as part of the exit deal or any action the EU decides to take unilaterally.

Warwick

bobscott
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Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:36 pm
Location: Kokkino Horio

Re: Thought we'd seen the back of him

Postby bobscott » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:39 pm

scooby wrote:
Mixos wrote:Don't you mean "Project: We Don't Have a Clue What Will Happen But Let's Do It Anyway" ? :wink:
Or, "project: We know for sure what will happen if we stay in so let's get out while we can!"


Ian Dunt's book 'Brexit - what the hell happens now?' is an interesting read.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

bettyboo
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:48 am

Re: Thought we'd seen the back of him

Postby bettyboo » Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:03 pm

Sorry Warwick, the one for non EU nationals is the permit I meant, at the moment we don't know anything, even if we are given automatic rights to stay will there be conditions like how long we have lived and worked here legally, a certain level of income/pension, health insurance and who knows, a basic knowledge of the language, it's all up in the air. That's why I applied to vote and voted in, why upset the apple cart :)


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