New residency rules post Brexit - reciprocity in Greece

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footscapes
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Re: New residency rules post Brexit - reciprocity in Greece

Postby footscapes » Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:57 pm

Kilkis wrote:..............................

A few years ago the tax code was changed to require anybody who lived here for more than 183 days in a year to become tax resident. It was fairly quickly changed to say that the 183 day criterion did not apply to "anyone staying for health, touristic or other personal reasons". Many accountants have used this clause to keep long term residents registered as non-tax resident. I only know of this clause from emails from my accountant. I have never been able to find it in the tax code itself. Perhaps this is what you are thinking of. It relates to tax residency status not the physical right to reside.

Warwick


It's in Νόμος 4172/2013, Article 4. https://www.taxheaven.gr/laws/law/index/law/528

It's puzzled me since Greek accountants began to use it as an override to ">183 days = tax residency" in that they seem to be ignoring an overall cap on stays in Greece. Google Translate of the 2nd sentence, para 2, article 4 gives "The preceding paragraph [attributing tax residence for stays >183 days] does not apply to natural persons in Greece exclusively for tourist, medical, therapeutic or similar private purposes and their stay does not exceed three hundred and sixty-five (365) days, including short stays abroad."

I may be misunderstanding it, but the OECD appears equally confused.

Paul

Kilkis
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Re: New residency rules post Brexit - reciprocity in Greece

Postby Kilkis » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:04 pm

Many thanks for that, Paul.

I think the confusion lies in the Google translation, in the fact that words can have more than one meaning and the word "paragraph". The following is the Google translation of Paragraphs 1 and 2 of Article 4 of Νόμος 4172/2013 but I have modified it as shown in red.

Paragraph 1
An individual is a tax resident of Greece, provided that:
(A) has in Greece its permanent or principal residence or habitual residence or the center of its vital interests, that is, its personal or economic or social ties, or
(B) is a consular, diplomatic or civil servant of a similar status or a civil servant who is of Greek nationality and is serving abroad.

Paragraph 2
A natural person who is in Greece continuously for more than one hundred and eighty-three (183) days, including short periods of stay abroad, is a tax resident of Greece from the first day of his presence in Greece. The preceding sub-paragraph does not apply to natural persons in Greece exclusively for tourist, medical, therapeutic or similar private purposes and their stay does not exceed three hundred and sixty-five (365) days, including short stays abroad. This paragraph does not exclude the application of paragraph 1 of this Article.

In the original Google translation the second sentence of Paragraph 2 reads:

The preceding paragraph does not apply to natural persons in Greece exclusively for tourist, medical, therapeutic or similar private purposes...This paragraph does not preclude the application of paragraph 1 of this Article.

In my version I have changed the word "paragraph" to the word "sub-paragraph" and "preclude" to "exclude". If you look at the original Greek version you will see that it uses the word παράγραφος where I have used the word "paragraph" in the translation BUT it uses the word εδάφιο where I have used the word "sub paragraph". Google translated both words as paragraph but it is clear from the Greek original that they have different meanings. If you put εδάφιο into Google translate on its own, without any other text, it translates as sub-paragraph. In the Google translation the statement about health etc appears to refer back to Paragraph 1, which doesn't make any sense. By using the word sub-paragraph it clearly refers back to the statement about 183 days. Also Google translates "δεν αποκλείει" as "does not preclude" in the paragraph but if you post those words into Google translate alone it translates it as "does not exclude", which is also how the OECD translated it.

I think with that clarification the law now appears clear:

    1 Paragraph 1 overrides everything. Anybody who has taken up permanent residence in Greece is considered tax resident.
    2 Paragraph 2 applies to people who have not taken up permanent residence BUT stay in Greece for more than 183 days in any one year. They are considered tax resident from the day of arrival.
    3 While there is a get out clause for those here for "tourist, medical, therapeutic or similar private purposes" it ONLY applies provided they do not stay more than 365 days.

I think confusion arises in the OECD document because they try to lump together paragraphs 1 and 2 of Article 4.

Warwick

filippos
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Re: New residency rules post Brexit - reciprocity in Greece

Postby filippos » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:05 pm

I know b*gger all about this and just do what my accountant advises but allowing for the vagaries of Google Translate (which I do think has improved markedly) could "natural persons in Greece" mean "Greek nationals" and, if so, does it make any difference? If not Greek nats., what happens regarding all the unnatural persons in Greece?

Kilkis
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Re: New residency rules post Brexit - reciprocity in Greece

Postby Kilkis » Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:14 pm

filippos wrote:... could "natural persons in Greece" mean "Greek nationals" ...


I don't believe so. The Greek version is "Ένα φυσικό πρόσωπο". I believe it is used to mean any person, i.e. anybody who makes their permanent residence in Greece is regarded as tax resident. It doesn't matter if they are Greek nationals or nationals of another country.

Warwick

filippos
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Re: New residency rules post Brexit - reciprocity in Greece

Postby filippos » Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:07 pm

So that leaves all the unnatural persons in limbo?

Kilkis
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Re: New residency rules post Brexit - reciprocity in Greece

Postby Kilkis » Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:04 am

Tax law tends to deal with three classes: a physical person, a legal person and a legal entity. The following defines a legal person and a legal entity from the OECD document:

    − a “legal person” is defined as every business or company with a legal personality or a partnership of businesses or companies with a legal personality,

    − a “legal entity” is defined as every form of organization, corporate or not, of a profit or non-profit character, that is not an individual or a legal person, mainly such as an association, organization, offshore company, every form of private investment company, every form of trust or any form of similar nature, every form of foundation or association or any form of similar nature, every form of personal company or any entity of personal character, every form of common enterprise, every form of management company of capital or assets or testament or inheritance or bequest or donation, every form of joint venture, every form of civil law company, participating or “shadow” companies, civil law associations.

A physical person is an individual. You and I are physical people.

Warwick

john4d
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Re: New residency rules post Brexit - reciprocity in Greece

Postby john4d » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:52 pm

Warwick, I understand that you, filippos and myself are more physical than most :D
There's no such thing as a bad taste joke

filippos
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Re: New residency rules post Brexit - reciprocity in Greece

Postby filippos » Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:47 pm

Warwick, I wasn't expecting a detailed discourse, or even any response to my question about 'unnatural persons'. I actually don't care enough to waste my time on discussing hypothetical situations over which I have no control or even influence. I'd rather do something more constructive and leave consideration of topics like this when a firm agreement has been made. Right now we're just speculating about what we might be facing. I'll be concerned when there's something I know I need to be concerned about. Until then I have better ways to spend my time.

Kilkis
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Re: New residency rules post Brexit - reciprocity in Greece

Postby Kilkis » Thu Jun 29, 2017 5:05 pm

Absolutely, John.

I was only trying to clarify the meaning of the terminology used, Filippos.

Warwick

bobscott
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Re: New residency rules post Brexit - reciprocity in Greece

Postby bobscott » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:37 am

Kilkis wrote:
A physical person is an individual. You and I are physical people.

Warwick


That's good to know!!!!! Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!


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