That's all right then

For discussion, news, comments, questions and information about Crete & Greece.
Blighty
Posts: 117
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Re: That's all right then

Postby Blighty » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:08 pm

With reference to buying a car without a residence permit, my understanding is that you can sign a declaration that you will not be in Crete for more than 90 days at any one time - so typically, you could use the car for 6 months of the year.

Blighty
Posts: 117
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Re: That's all right then

Postby Blighty » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:09 pm

With greater relevance to holiday home owners and part time residents, EU proposals to introduce ETIAS (an electronic travel authorisation system) will restrict travel within the Shengen zone (which includes Greece) to 90 days within any 180 day period after BREXIT.
Source: https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/421

Given this scenario, a residents permit would give part time UK residents greater flexibility to travel to and from Crete after BREXIT.
Can anyone think of any disadvantages for part time UK residents obtaining a residents permit?

Jason64
Posts: 67
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Re: That's all right then

Postby Jason64 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:48 pm

Tax implications maybe?

Kilkis
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Re: That's all right then

Postby Kilkis » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:29 pm

Interesting that, based on the paper linked, in the view of Migration Watch people who are completely self supporting and wish to live in a different country don't exist? It is a clear category in the EU Directive governing migration but doesn't get a mention in the paper.

The principle of the EU rules are that if a business needs labour and labour is prepared to go and work in that business then they should be free to do so. The principle of the Migration Watch paper is that government will decide who can work where. Perhaps they should extend it? If you currently live in Yorkshire but get offered a job in Warwickshire you have to get permission from the government. They could then look at things like your skill level and whether Warwickshire needs your particular skills and has the infrastructure to support another family. In my experience letting governments decide causes far more problems than it solves.

Roll on the day when there are 7 billion totally independent nation states each interacting completely freely with any other nation states that they chose.

Warwick

Carolina
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Re: That's all right then

Postby Carolina » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:52 pm

The latest from UK minister on how EU nationals will apply for UK 'settled status' https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... tus-brexit

They will 'just' need to answer an online application form with six to eight questions, at a cost of no more than a UK passport and a decision will be delivered within two weeks.

The above, by the way, applies ONLY to those who qualify for settled status, giving them the indefinite right to live in Britain, and they will have to demonstrate five years’ continuous residence and pass a criminal record test.

How is the same going to happen for Brits in Greece ???!! Can we really see this being easy, even for those who have current 5 year residency? And the very best of luck to those who don't.

Jason64
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Re: That's all right then

Postby Jason64 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:03 pm

Oh blimey GULP :shock:

Houmeri91
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Location: Perama

Re: That's all right then

Postby Houmeri91 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:35 am

Well going to be interesting times ahead whatever happens , anyone able to read the tea leaves with any accuracy ? lol

Kilkis
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Re: That's all right then

Postby Kilkis » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:04 am

I find the Grauniad article linked by Carol slightly misleading. As always the media attempts to distil a lot of quite complicated information into a simple narrative. In doing so the condensate becomes so dense that it largely obscures the information behind it.

Up to the date that the UK leaves the EU, non-UK EU citizens live in the UK and UK citizens live elsewhere in the EU on the basis of Directive 2004/38/EC. The Agreement therefore has to use that as its starting point. The date when conditions change from the Directive to the Agreement is the date that the UK leaves the EU, currently 29 March 2019. Under the Directive there are four broad categories of people:

    1 Those who stay in the UK for less than 3 months under Article 6
    2 Those who work in the UK under Article 7, Paragraph 1 (a)
    3 Those who are self supporting under Article 7, Paragraph 1 (b)
    4 Those who study in the UK under Article 7, Paragraph 1 (c)

Categories 2 to 4 can be divided into two main groups:

    A Those who have been in the UK for less than 5 years. These have right of residence as long as they satisfy the conditions in Article 7
    B Those who have been in the UK for 5 years or more. These have permanent right of residence under Article 16

All these categories and both groups are dealt with in the Agreement. The Agreement basically works on the principle of maintaining the rights citizens have on the day of Brexit but that might be achieved in different ways for different categories. The agreement also allows citizens to change status.

The article states in the first line: "The registration of 3 million EU nationals for “settled status” in Britain...". The figure 3 million implies ALL EU nationals in the UK will register for "settled status". It goes on to say: "Those who qualify for settled status, giving them the indefinite right to live in Britain, will have to demonstrate five years’ continuous residence and pass a criminal record test". This implies only those in Group B will apply for settled status. Which is it? Really the UK needs two terms, one to describe those in Group A and those in Group B. Also the Agreement does not mention a specific fee for applying but simply states that it should be no more than the fee for issuing similar documents. Whether a passport is a comparable document is open to debate.

The article mentions nothing about changes of status. For example someone might arrive in the UK on the day before Brexit intending to stay for 3 months seeking work. Under the Agreement they would be allowed to continue seeking work and, if successful, would then be allowed residency beyond 3 months under category 2 above. Similarly on the date of Brexit someone might be in Group A and be allowed to continue residency as long as they satisfy the conditions. At some point they could achieve the status of Group B and be allowed permanent residency.

Obviously the converse is also true for UK citizens living elsewhere in the EU, e.g. Greece. As far as I can see from reading the Agreement if someone is in Greece on the day of Brexit as a visitor in category 1 they can continue to stay. Once they reach 3 months and wish to continue to stay they should still be able to apply for a Residence Certificate provided they satisfy one of categories 2 to 4. If they then reach 5 years residency they should still be able to apply for permanent residency. I cannot guarantee this interpretation is correct. Read the Agreement and make your own mind up.

Those of us with a permanent Residency Certificate should be able to change it to whatever new document applies in Greece free of charge with only a criminal record check. If anyone qualifies for a permanent Residency Certificate but doesn't have one, now might be the time to get one? It is also worth noting that under the Agreement a Residence Certificate isn't the only proof of residency and other documentation might be used. My experience of the Greek process is that they are only interested in a Residence Certificate. I had trouble getting a permanent Residence Certificate because I had let my 5 year Residence Permit expire. I could prove continuous employment in Greece through tax records, insurance records and ΟΑΕΔ registration for well over 5 years but they weren't interested. Eventually the local sergeant relented and issued one but I think that was personal discretion and couldn't be relied on in another situation.

Warwick

YoMo2
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Re: That's all right then

Postby YoMo2 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:32 am

It may be some time before anyone gets back to you on that one Warwick.

Andrew

Kilkis
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Re: That's all right then

Postby Kilkis » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:36 am

I understand the sentiment, Andrew. I don't write the rules, simply try to make sense of them. They are a little bit complicated but not necessarily difficult. If a regulation affects your life it is much safer to read what that regulation says at source rather than rely on a media description, even though the former is not as easy to read. If I was writing the rules they would be much simpler:

Rule 1 Everybody can go wherever they want whenever they want and stay as long as they want.
Rule 2 There are no other rules.

I think that is easy to interpret.

Warwick

Jason64
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:09 am

Re: That's all right then

Postby Jason64 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:21 pm

I vote Warwick, Hail Warwick

Kilkis
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Re: That's all right then

Postby Kilkis » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:47 pm

I've just listened to a speech by Barnier outlining the Commission's position on how Brexit will proceed from now. Basically he is saying that there can be a transition period starting on 30 March 2019, when the UK officially leaves the EU, and ending on 31 December 2020. That date is chosen since the current budget period ends on that date so the UK would not get involved with the next budget period, i.e. it makes a clean break.

During the transition period the UK would respect all EU rules, i.e. pay into the budget, allow free movement, respect EU law, including any new laws implemented during that period, respect the authority of the ECJ and not complete any new trade deals with third countries. In return the UK would have complete access to the single market and still be in the customs union. The UK would not officially be in the EU so the UK would not participate in any EU functions, e.g. the Council, the Council of Ministers, the EU Parliament etc. That means that, whatever the final agreement says, UK citizens should have the right to reside in another EU country at least until 31 December 2020.

A final legally binding agreement on the withdrawal arrangements, the transition period and at least an outline of what the ongoing relationship will be after 31 December 2020 must be reached by October 2018 in order for it to pass through all the necessary approval votes before 29 March 2019. The withdrawal arrangement will be based on the joint EU/UK report discussed earlier in this thread so that should preserve residency, healthcare and pension rights for those UK citizens already living in another EU country. He further suggested that we know what the ongoing relationship will look like because it will be based on one of the existing relationships. He didn't specify which relationships but presumably Norway, Switzerland or Canada. My gut feeling would be that the UK won't accepts a Norway/Switzerland deal and the EU won't budge on including services in a Canada style deal.

Warwick

PS Everywhere above where I have referred to UK citizens living in another EU country the same applies to EU citizens living in the UK.

Mixos
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Re: That's all right then

Postby Mixos » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:42 pm

Unless I have missed it amid all the sound and fury, I'm not sure that Barnier has been authorised to state that the UK's future relationship with the EU "will be based on one of the existing relationships.." (ie Norway, Canada, Switzerland.) In fact, if the media is to be believed, Barnier has already had to backtrack from previous comments like this, after pressure from some of the heads of government, who acknowledge that a bespoke deal cannot be ruled out that this stage in proceedings. There is nothing in the EU rulebook to say that a departing member state must accept an "off the shelf" future partnership. That is a matter for negotiation and everything that Barnier utters should be seen as merely the opening position in those negotiations.

Kilkis
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Re: That's all right then

Postby Kilkis » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:34 pm

Agreed. I am only reporting what he said. In theory anything is possible.

Theoretically the UK could have totally tariff free access to the EU market for goods and services with no customs border of any sort, retain the ability to do trade deals with third countries, pay zero into the EU budget, scrap all EU legislation and restrict access to the UK for EU workers. After all that is exactly what Lord Lawson said the UK would achieve and he is a Right Honourable so I am sure he wouldn't lie. Personally I won't be holding my breath waiting.

Warwick

PS I posted the report to update people, who are concerned about their future status, on what sort of time-scales are likely to be, not to promote a debate on the nature of the final deal would be regarding trade.

bobscott
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Re: That's all right then

Postby bobscott » Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:46 pm

Mixos wrote:Unless I have missed it amid all the sound and fury, I'm not sure that Barnier has been authorised to state that the UK's future relationship with the EU "will be based on one of the existing relationships.." (ie Norway, Canada, Switzerland.) In fact, if the media is to be believed, Barnier has already had to backtrack from previous comments like this, after pressure from some of the heads of government, who acknowledge that a bespoke deal cannot be ruled out that this stage in proceedings. There is nothing in the EU rulebook to say that a departing member state must accept an "off the shelf" future partnership. That is a matter for negotiation and everything that Barnier utters should be seen as merely the opening position in those negotiations.


According to today's press he has now backtracked on the latest statement after a slap on the wrist from the 27 countries' representative. Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!


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