Residence permits.

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Kilkis
Posts: 9812
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Residence permits.

Postby Kilkis » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:37 pm

Phild wrote:Our buff permits were issued in October 2007.

I'm quite annoyed that we have to go through the rigmarole to get a permanent one, since this one has no expiry date (but, as you imply, has expired), but it *is* the 'Βεβαίωση ' rather than the 'Eγγραφο', so it looks like we will have to bite the bullet and do it.


You don't "have to" but if it makes life easier down the road why not do it. It's not very difficult provided you take all the necessary document with you.

    1 You need to prove you have lived here for 5 years. A Residence Certificate issued at least 5 years previously should do that.
    2 You need to prove you have somewhere to live. The Notary contract for a property or a legal rental agreement should be fine or, as Peebee reported, an electricity bill might suffice.
    3 You need to prove you have health insurance. An IKA book, a private health insurance policy or probably an EHIC card should be sufficient.
    4 You need to prove you have sufficient income to live. I think anybody who is tax resident could use their latest tax statement. Normally a bank book also works.
    5 You need some photographs, usually 4.
    6 You need an identity document, usually a passport.

Peebee was also asked for his tax number. I wasn't but it is possible that I supplied a document that had it on. Personally I would take originals and a photocopy of all documents but they usually make their own photocopies so originals alone should suffice. In the case of a Notary contract they usually want the page with your names on, not all of it. It takes about 10 minutes for them to complete the form and you pick up the certificate a few days later. Not very arduous in the broad scheme of things?

Warwick

Kilkis
Posts: 9812
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Residence permits.

Postby Kilkis » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:55 pm

It's pretty normal to use Statutory Instruments to implement laws, Jason. Acts of Parliament, i.e. primary legislation, is used to lay down the general principles and Statutory Instruments, i.e. secondary legislation, is used to fill in the detail. This gives a list of Acts of Parliament while this is a list of Statutory Instruments. As you can see, in recent years there are typically between 20 and 50 Acts per year while there are between 1,500 and 4,000 SIs per year . EU legislation is very similar. Treaties, of which there are very few, are used to define the general principles and Regulations and Directives are used to fill in the details. Treaties are implemented in UK law as acts while Regulations and Directives are implemented as SIs.

It is also not correct to say that the government can implement Statutory Instruments with no scrutiny by parliament. It is true that SIs don't go through the full debating process, multiple votes and passage through the Lords as well as the Commons but they are tabled in parliament and MPs can raise issues. They are also scrutinised by relevant committees. It would be impossible to implement everything as Acts.

Warwick

Jason64
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:09 am

Re: Residence permits.

Postby Jason64 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:03 pm

Hmm, who to believe??

peebee
Posts: 738
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:07 am
Location: Kalyves

Re: Residence permits.

Postby peebee » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:45 pm

Kilkis wrote:4 You need to prove you have sufficient income to live. I think anybody who is tax resident could use their latest tax statement. Normally a bank book also works.

Warwick

Never been asked for proof of income in the 7 1/2 years I've lived here.

Kilkis
Posts: 9812
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Residence permits.

Postby Kilkis » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:23 pm

peebee wrote:...Never been asked for proof of income in the 7 1/2 years I've lived here.


I'm surprised. It is a fundamental requirement of Article 7 Paragraph 1 (b):

    (b) have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State;

That is the condition under which most of us reside. I have always been asked and everybody I have helped to get a Certificate have also always been asked. It wasn't very rigorous. Simply showing a bank book worked in most cases. I originally resided here under Article 7 Paragraph 1 (a) and then I had to get a document from ΟΑΕΔ to prove that I was legally registered as working in Greece.

Warwick

Kilkis
Posts: 9812
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Residence permits.

Postby Kilkis » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:29 pm

Jason64 wrote:Hmm, who to believe??


Obviously not me. I lie about everything. Perhaps this might help you, especially the right hand side panel?

Warwick

Jason64
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:09 am

Re: Residence permits.

Postby Jason64 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:12 pm

You lie? I don’t believe you.

Jason64
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:09 am

Re: Residence permits.

Postby Jason64 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:38 pm

Kilkis wrote:
Jason64 wrote:Hmm, who to believe??


Obviously not me. I lie about everything. Perhaps this might help you, especially the right hand side panel?

Warwick


What they say, and what they do are 2 different things!!!

Kilkis
Posts: 9812
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Residence permits.

Postby Kilkis » Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:19 am

I think people need to differentiate between the mechanisms of politics and how politicians behave.

With regard to the mechanisms there are checks and balances that prevent politicians manipulating how the system works. Those checks and balances are quite hard to overcome. The web site I linked describes briefly what those checks and balances are and how they work. They do work.

When it comes to how politicians behave it is a different matter. A government sets itself an objective that it wishes to achieve. It then creates a narrative that it believes will convince people to allow it to achieve that objective. Any relationship between that narrative and reality is purely coincidental. The narrative is not judged on its truthfulness or otherwise but on its effectiveness in achieving the objective. Obviously at some point the narrative bangs its head against reality. In most cases the government can obfuscate the conflict and still achieve their objective. From time to time the narrative is so far from reality that it becomes extremely difficult to reconcile them. This is true of all "democratic" governments everywhere. The election of Syriza was a classic example. Brexit is proving to be another.

Warwick

Phild
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:01 pm
Location: Way out West

Re: Residence permits.

Postby Phild » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:37 am

filippos wrote:Also, let your irritation show during the process and there's a chance that the cooperative official you're dealing with becomes less so and loses most of his/her ability to understand English or your Greek then demands another document you don't have. When you return another document you don't have will be demanded. Bureaucrats everywhere can usually find the a way to have the last word.


Yes, that's my problem with the whole process in a nutshell - I hate bureaucracy in all its forms, and those who wield that tiny little bit of power they have to their full advantage.

Plus, the apparently indeterminate requirements for applying and actually getting the permit. Our first foray into the process wasn't as bad as for some people I've heard from, but it was still annoying to have to go back several times, with different policemen having different ideas about what was needed, plus the odd occasion when the functionary was 'too busy', or just not actually there on that day.

Plus plus, the apparent need to have the document to buy a car in the first place, when you can buy land, you can build a house, and probably even set-up a business without one.

Plus plus plus, there's no b#*%dy expiry date on the, apparently temporary, certificate!

Kilkis wrote: It takes about 10 minutes for them to complete the form and you pick up the certificate a few days later. Not very arduous in the broad scheme of things?
Warwick


See "Plus" point above... :roll:

:D
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Phil
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Kilkis
Posts: 9812
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Residence permits.

Postby Kilkis » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:32 am

The last time I went it was to help a friend to do it. The first thing the policewoman asked my friend was why did she want one. I immediately replied, "Because Greek law requires us to have one". She sat staring at me for about 30 seconds, obviously mulling that over in her mind, then got the form out and started filling it in. I would guess that she was considering how it would look if she, as an enforcer of the law, refused to give us one knowing that what I had said was true. I had briefed my friend on what to take so every document she asked for was produced immediately, original plus photocopy. I think that sort of immediate response gets them into the frame of mind that whatever they ask for we were going to provide it so they may as well stop asking. She got the certificate 3 days later.

Back in 2005 when I got my first permit it was a very different story. The officer responsible had to fax Athens to ask how to do it. I had to get documents from my employer, documents from ΟΑΕΔ, documents from my landlady, a legal translation of my marriage licence and 4, no make that 6, no make that 5 photographs. The process took over two weeks and I think about five visits. Gradually the atmosphere changed over those visits from outright hostility to me being his new best friend.

I agree with Filippos. Don't get angry. Whatever happens, soak it up and smile.

Warwick

kvsteele
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 2:42 am
Location: Latsida Crete

Re: Residence permits.

Postby kvsteele » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:42 am

Just over five years ago my husband and I managed to get our residence certificates after a bit of a struggle and wrongly, it appears, thought they were permanent. The wording on the front does not seem to fit in any of the categories mentioned. ´ΒΕΒΑΙΩΣΗ ΕΓΓΡΑΦΗΣ ΠΟΛΙΤΗ ΚΡΑΤΟΥΣ ΜΕΛΟΥΣ ΤΗΣ ΕΥΡΩΠΑΙΚΗΣ ΕΝΩΣΗΣ´. So am I to presume that we have to go to the police station and do battle once again for a "permanent" residence permit? I hasten to add that I,along with many others, thought that the Buff coloured permit did not have an expiry date so automatically assumed it was permanent. I pale in anticipation of going through the whole process again especially as my husband, being of a certain age, does not have private health insurance or IKA coverage and managed to qualify with his Canadian health coverage. Any help greatly appreciated.
Moved onto Crete finally...It's been a long wait

Kilkis
Posts: 9812
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Residence permits.

Postby Kilkis » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:56 pm

kvsteele wrote:...The wording on the front does not seem to fit in any of the categories mentioned. ´ΒΕΒΑΙΩΣΗ ΕΓΓΡΑΦΗΣ ΠΟΛΙΤΗ ΚΡΑΤΟΥΣ ΜΕΛΟΥΣ ΤΗΣ ΕΥΡΩΠΑΙΚΗΣ ΕΝΩΣΗΣ´...


I am not sure why you think that doesn't fit either category? It fits exactly with the first category but I gave an abbreviated version of the wording in my earlier post, i.e. the version on the front of your certificate refers to "CITIZENS OF MEMBER STATE OF THE EUROPEAN UNION" while my abbreviated version simply refers to "CITIZENS OF THE EUROPEAN UNION". It means the same thing.

kvsteele wrote:...I pale in anticipation of going through the whole process again especially as my husband, being of a certain age, does not have private health insurance or IKA coverage and managed to qualify with his Canadian health coverage. Any help greatly appreciated.


The requirement is to have health insurance that provides medical cover in the country you intend to reside. Providing his Canadian health cover will pay for treatment in Greece it should be acceptable. Fundamentally all the provisions for residency are based on the idea that you should not become a burden on the state. All they care about is that the Greek state will not have to provide treatment free of charge.

Warwick

Phild
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:01 pm
Location: Way out West

Re: Residence permits.

Postby Phild » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:29 pm

Kilkis wrote:I agree with Filippos. Don't get angry. Whatever happens, soak it up and smile.

Warwick


I have no intention of showing any emotion at all, but I will be seething inside. 8)

...and yes, I realise that with my Γραφειοκρατοφοβία I chose to live in the wrong country...
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Phil

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marmite
Posts: 164
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:16 pm

Re: Residence permits.

Postby marmite » Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:35 pm

I mistook my permit for a permanent one and thought it had no expirey date. Having read all the posts I now see I need to update my temporary one to a permanent one. However, my temporary one was issued in 2009 - so is now way out of date (if it only lasted for 5 years). Do you think that will be an issue when I go to get a permanent one?


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