IKA Renewal Heads Up

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Carolina
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby Carolina » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:52 pm

peebee wrote:Wifey checked this morning, you can renew through the KEP office, however IKA are now insisting, that if your res permit was issued 5 or more years ago, you cannot renew without getting a blue permanent one.


Wow.

It seems like the wise thing to do anyway, get a blue permanent residence certificate if you can, it's more likely to enshrine your residency rights after Brexit.

mythos master
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby mythos master » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:36 pm

Looks like maybe another thing that varies from area to area and or office to office,7 yrs ago we replaced our temp blue res permits and were given beige ones which the policeman told us were permanent,just before christmas we went to our kep office to double check and were told they are indeed permanent permits.
a pessimist is an optimist with experience

peebee
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby peebee » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:19 pm

mythos master wrote:Looks like maybe another thing that varies from area to area and or office to office,7 yrs ago we replaced our temp blue res permits and were given beige ones which the policeman told us were permanent,just before christmas we went to our kep office to double check and were told they are indeed permanent permits.

Yep - same here, I checked with KEP last month, and they said they don't expire. However, IKA are now insisting on blue ones if your buff one is over 5 years old

Kilkis
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby Kilkis » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:34 pm

They are "permanent" in the sense that you do not need to renew them BUT they are not THE Permanent Residence Certificate that you are entitled to after living here 5 years.

The beige ones are a registration certificate that you are required to get if you are staying in Greece for over 3 months. They are issued in accordance with Article 7 of DIRECTIVE 2004/38/EC. This in Chapter III headed "Right of residence

The blue ones are a residence documant that you are entitled to get after you have lived in Greece for over 5 years. They are issued in accordance with Article 16 of the same Directive. This is in Chapter IV headed "Right of permanent residence". This certificate does not depend on satisfying the conditions in Article 7.

The old blue/green residence permits that expired after 5 years were issued under a previous Directive and ceased being issued somewhere around 2006 when the 2004 Directive came into effect in Greek law.

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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby filippos » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:02 pm

We went to Kalyves KEP just before Christmas to ask about IKA book renewals ("Come back in January") and while there asked if our beige permits needed changing for blue. "I don't think so but I'll check" but couldn't contact the right person so promised to find out and would know after the holiday. Walked in this a.m. armed with IKA books and before we could speak there was a flood of apologies for being wrong about the permit and even more for being unable to take the IKA books without the blue permit.

Some offices have clearly been informed somewhat late or not at all.

Kilkis
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby Kilkis » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:34 pm

At least, based on your experience, Filippos, it does sound as though KEP can still do the renewal for us providing we have the correct residence document.

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Sinkingslowly
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby Sinkingslowly » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:04 pm

How would this apply if you are relatively new resident and not entitled to a 5 year blue certificate or applying under S1 for the first time?

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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby filippos » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:44 pm

Kilkis wrote:At least, based on your experience, Filippos, it does sound as though KEP can still do the renewal for us providing we have the correct residence document.

On our pre-Christmas visit they confirmed that they will accept the IKA books and repeated that assurance today but they can't without the blue permit. They also confirmed, with some exasperation, "We're sorry but these are the new rules".

Kilkis
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby Kilkis » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:08 am

Sinkingslowly wrote:How would this apply if you are relatively new resident and not entitled to a 5 year blue certificate or applying under S1 for the first time?


I can't say that I know for sure but logically they should not ask a new applicant for any sort of residence certificate. Anybody new to Greece would need medical insurance to qualify for a residence certificate and would normally use an IKA book as proof of that. If IKA demand a residence certificate before issuing a book then they create a Catch 22 situation. You can't get a book without the certificate but you can't get a certificate without the book. I would turn up with your S1 form, your passport, a couple of photocopies of your passport, some proof of where you live, a couple of photocopies of that proof plus a handful of passport size photos and see what happens. If they ask for a residence certificate tell them you can't get one until you get the IKA book. If you already have a book and are renewing it take your normal residence certificate, i.e. beige one. As long as the issue date is within the last five years then you don't qualify for a permanent one, i.e. blue one, so I don't see how they can ask for one.

I'm not sure why they are asking anybody for any sort of residence certificate. An S1 form means that they can claim the cost of medical treatment from the home country, e.g. the UK. Surely that is their only concern. It may be a valid concern for the UK whether you are entitled to the cover but as long as the UK is prepared to pay I don't see why Greece cares? I would guess that in many cases they are not claiming anyway because they can't be bothered to return the second part of the S1 form to the UK. I would be surprised if the UK would pay any claim unless that part had been returned.

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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby Carolina » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:40 am

Kilkis wrote:
I'm not sure why they are asking anybody for any sort of residence certificate. An S1 form means that they can claim the cost of medical treatment from the home country, e.g. the UK. Surely that is their only concern. It may be a valid concern for the UK whether you are entitled to the cover but as long as the UK is prepared to pay I don't see why Greece cares?
Warwick


"It is the current rule that anyone who is resident here should apply for a residence certifcate - whatever their status" Quote from the UK Ambassador. To get IKA when you work here you have to produce a residence certificate to register. So the same rule should apply to any others e.g. those with an S1.

I suppose the question is why are IKA only insisting on this now? Dare I suggest that it is Brexit related? I could even suggest that they are trying to protect you for when the cookie crumbles, but that seems beyond believable! Unless .. it is somehow in their interest ...

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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby Kilkis » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:58 am

There is a fundamental difference between those who are working in Greece, i.e. they have residency under Paragraph 1 (a) of Article 7 of Directive 2004/38/EC, and those who are self supporting or are students, i.e. they have residency under Paragraphs 1 (b) and (c) of Article 7 of that Directive. It is a condition of Paragraphs 1 (b) and (c) that the person has health insurance in order to qualify for residency. That is not a condition for Paragraph 1 (a). Presumably this is because working will involve paying into some form of insurance scheme so other health insurance is not necessary. It is possible for a worker, therefore, to apply for a residency certificate without health insurance and then use that to register with IKA. As I explained above, imposing the same condition on people who are self supporting or students as for workers creates a Catch 22 situation.

Warwick

PS While I agree that it is a legal requirement to get a residence certificate if you stay more than 3 months in reality not much happens if you don't. I don't know if the rules have changed about registering with IKA but I started work in Greece in 1997 and was registered with IKA and OAED but I didn't get a residence permit until 2005. Brexit makes it a much higher priority today.

BST
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby BST » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:15 am

If you are not entitled to IKA, does it really matter if you have a blue, beige or no resident permit? Who is going to check?

Kilkis
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby Kilkis » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:04 pm

It might matter after Brexit?

Warwick

BST
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby BST » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:15 pm

Maybe but pretty useless if healthcare isn't guaranteed as present in Greece and EHIC cards are useless otherwise might be essential to stay resident of UK (183 days in UK or else!) to guarantee expensive healthcare if required. Talk about no man's land!! B......y mess! I guess people who are already receiving state pensions and are resident will be ok also people working and receiving IKAs but there's a big gap in between.....

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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby Carolina » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:54 pm

Nothing has yet been agreed for healthcare for non residents or those who split their time between EU countries, or travellers -
"The UK and EU have also now agreed a reciprocal healthcare arrangement, as set out in the Withdrawal Agreement – this means that if you’re a Brit resident in Greece on the date we leave the EU, you will continue to benefit from reciprocal healthcare cover on your existing terms.Access to services for those arriving in EU countries after exit is something we want to discuss in the next round of negotiations. ." http://www.livingincrete.net/brexit.html


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