IKA Renewal Heads Up

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bettyboo
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby bettyboo » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:16 pm

If you live or work permanently in Greece you should be resident or resident for tax purposes in Greece, there is no No Man's land, but because of the loopholes used by Accountants discussed on this forum previously people can still live here full time and be tax resident in the UK, I personally don't understand the fear that people have of being tax resident here or wanting to get a permanent residence certificate, if you live in Greece abide by the rules, it's actually less stressful ;) :)

BST
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby BST » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:34 pm

NB if you receive a government pension it has to be taxed in the UK under present rules! So if you have no income in Greece you cannot be taxed in Greece.

bobscott
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby bobscott » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:56 pm

BST wrote:NB if you receive a government pension it has to be taxed in the UK under present rules! So if you have no income in Greece you cannot be taxed in Greece.


.................... and the last time I started the ball rolling to become tax resident in Greece, the Accountants told me that the Tax Office view on my Government pension (i.e. works pension, having worked for the government - not to be confused with the State Retirement Pension) was that I would pay tax on my Government pension in Greece, then claim back from the UK the amount the UK had deducted! The accountant claimed that the tax office were not very 'au fait' with the double taxation agreement (DTA) between UK and Greece (which specifically says that a Government pension (Greek or UK) can only be taxed in the country of origin). At which point I gave up.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Carolina
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby Carolina » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:19 pm

Was skimmimg through the thread earlier, comment now on Warwick's points -
Kilkis wrote: It is possible for a worker, therefore, to apply for a residency certificate without health insurance and then use that to register with IKA. As I explained above, imposing the same condition on people who are self supporting or students as for workers creates a Catch 22 situation.

I imagine it could be possible to apply for a Residence Certificate with the S1 form? Stating that you need the certificate to register the S1 at IKA. I would also imagine that the local police station may be more flexible than IKA!

Kilkis wrote:PS While I agree that it is a legal requirement to get a residence certificate if you stay more than 3 months in reality not much happens if you don't. I don't know if the rules have changed about registering with IKA but I started work in Greece in 1997 and was registered with IKA and OAED but I didn't get a residence permit until 2005. Brexit makes it a much higher priority today.

The rules changed for workers registering with IKA in 2009. Since then anyone who starts paying into IKA is required to show a residence certificate when registering. I know the year because that is the year I got my certificate, for this very reason. Up until 2009 it wasn't a requirement.

Kilkis
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby Kilkis » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:22 pm

BST wrote:NB if you receive a government pension it has to be taxed in the UK under present rules! So if you have no income in Greece you cannot be taxed in Greece.


There is a difference between being "tax resident" and being "taxed" on different income streams if they arise in different countries. Whether you are "tax resident" is judged by things like how long you spend in the country. Whether you are" taxed" on a particular income stream depends on what the Double Taxation Agreement says about that income stream. I think people tend to assume, wrongly in my opinion, that because their income is from a source that remains taxed in the country of origin that they are not tax resident in Greece. I believe that they should be tax resident in Greece but should get a Double Taxation Form from the country where the income arises stating that it is taxable in the country of origin and not liable for tax in the country of residence, preferably stating the article of the DTA.

bobscott wrote:... the Accountants told me that the Tax Office view on my Government pension (i.e. works pension, having worked for the government - not to be confused with the State Retirement Pension) was that I would pay tax on my Government pension in Greece, then claim back from the UK the amount the UK had deducted! The accountant claimed that the tax office were not very 'au fait' with the double taxation agreement (DTA) between UK and Greece (which specifically says that a Government pension (Greek or UK) can only be taxed in the country of origin). At which point I gave up.


I have four pension income streams and I am tax resident in Greece. I have just successfully completed a full tax audit, or to be more accurate my accountant has just completed it for me. One of my pension incomes classes as a government pension and is declared as non-taxable in Greece by my accountant. As part of the audit I had to get a written statement confirming that the particular pension was paid by the government since the letter I had submitted did not mention this. I didn't need to get a DTA form from the UK simply a letter confirming the source of the pension. Once I obtained such confirmation it was accepted as non-taxable in Greece. It remains liable for tax in the UK. I would agree that there is considerable confusion about what the DTA says about different income stream both in Greece and the UK. For example, the UK government's own document giving guidance to HMRC staff has at least one error in it. Generally it contains a lot of useful information. Anything with Note 3 attached effectively means that an income stream that is usually classed as government is classed as non-government when it relates to Greece. Perhaps your pension fits in one of those categories, Bob.

Warwick

YoMo2
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby YoMo2 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:55 am

The document Warwick linked to contains a nice little wrinkle in the last paragraph.

Andrew

marmite
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby marmite » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:56 pm

I am just collecting all the relevant paperwork for the blue permit. They ask for proof of residence. All house related papers and bills are in my husbands name. Anyone any ideas what will qualify as proof of residence in this case?

Kilkis
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby Kilkis » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:17 pm

I don't know for certain but you could try your marriage certificate plus a legal declaration, like the one Yin&Yang posted earlier in the thread but addressed to whoever the police tell you to address it to and with a declaration along the lines "that (your full name with the usual of ...) is still married to me and has lived with me at (your address) continuously since (date of arrival)", signed by your husband together with documents proving where he lives. I'm not sure it will work but I certainly had to provide my marriage certificate, plus a legal translation, together with a similar declaration when my late wife and I got our first residence permits back in 2005. When we got our permanent certificates in 2010 we jointly owned our house so it was not an issue. They simply photocopied the relevant page of the Notary contract.

Warwick

PS If they do need a legal translation of the marriage certificate I could probably let you have a blank one that looks like a green original as a word document and you can type in your own details. It might cost less if you take that to a lawyer already done and just ask them to authorise it.

peebee
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby peebee » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:21 pm

marmite wrote:I am just collecting all the relevant paperwork for the blue permit. They ask for proof of residence. All house related papers and bills are in my husbands name. Anyone any ideas what will qualify as proof of residence in this case?

If you already have a temporary one, I can't see that there should be any problem,

Kilkis
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby Kilkis » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:24 pm

peebee wrote:...If you already have a temporary one, I can't see that there should be any problem,


The problem, as reported by Filippos above, is that if you have been here more than 5 years, which Marmite has, they are not accepting the registration certificate (beige) they are demanding the permanent residence document (blue).

Warwick

Carolina
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby Carolina » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:09 pm

marmite wrote:I am just collecting all the relevant paperwork for the blue permit. They ask for proof of residence. All house related papers and bills are in my husbands name. Anyone any ideas what will qualify as proof of residence in this case?


Do you mean something with your address on ? What about from the bank, ask for a statement print out with your address on? Or copy of your tax return which presumably has both yours and your husband's name & address on?

peebee
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby peebee » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:45 am

Kilkis wrote:
peebee wrote:...If you already have a temporary one, I can't see that there should be any problem,


The problem, as reported by Filippos above, is that if you have been here more than 5 years, which Marmite has, they are not accepting the registration certificate (beige) they are demanding the permanent residence document (blue).

Warwick

Yes, I know, I was the one who originally posted the fact. I was referring to Marmite's comment about proof of residence.

Kilkis
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby Kilkis » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:24 am

Because I don't think the Registration Certificate shows your address. The fact that you have held the Registration Certificate for 5 years is proof that you are entitled to the Permanent Resident Document BUT it does not prove where you are living. In order to issue the Permanent Residence Document they need proof of address.

Warwick

peebee
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby peebee » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:07 am

Do you not have to provide proof of address to obtain temporary one? pretty sure we did.
Wifey has got one, but she doesn't have any utility bills in here name, rental agreement covered both of us.

BST
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Re: IKA Renewal Heads Up

Postby BST » Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:13 am

Just a couple of questions. Thanks for comments so far. When I obtained my temporary beige residents permit the police were happy to use my EHIC card as evidence/guarantee of health cover, which I have used since then for health cover. Has anyone used or tried to use the EHIC card for a permanent resident permit recently? Am I correct in thinking that even if you become a Greek tax resident you still aren't entitled to IKA cover? Is there anything to suggest that if you become a permanent Greek resident then you will be entitled to free health care as present when you start getting a state pension if this is after Brexit? If the answers are no, no and no then I can't see the point of becoming a Greek tax resident as I will still be reliant on the UK for healthcare and will then probably have to reside in the UK for 6 months plus a year.....Unless of course I win the lottery!


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