Permanent Residence Document

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Kilkis
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Permanent Residence Document

Postby Kilkis » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:43 am

I am posting this information as a new thread so it doesn't get buried among other issues. Many UK ex-pats are currently applying for a Permanent Residence Document, Έγγραφο Πιστοποίησης Μόνιμης Διαμονής Πολίτη Κράτους Μέλους της Ευρωπαϊκής Ένωσης. All who have posted their experience on this forum have been asked for exactly the same documentation that is required for the Residence Registration Certificate, Βεβαίωση Eγγραφής Πολιτών Ευρωπαϊκης Ενοσης. I pointed out on a previous thread that the Directive governing the issuing of these documents quite clearly states that the evidence needed for the Registration Certificate is NOT required for the Permanent Residence Document. Following that post I wrote to the British Embassy in Athens pointing out this anomaly. I have just received a reply confirming that the evidence being requested is NOT required. They referred me to a link to the official Greek web site defining what is required. It is only available in Greek, despite the English language button at top right. Basically it states:

    The person concerned should have:
    a) Application,
    b) Document on the basis of which the applicant has entered our country,
    c) Documents certifying their 5-year stay in Greece (residence permit, etc.) and
    d) Three (3) photos.

Item a) is the form they fill in at the police station with your details. Item b) is your passport. Item c) is the beige Registration Certificate. Note that there is no requirement for proof of income or proof of healthcare insurance. Although not listed, you will also be asked for proof of address which, according to the Embassy, could be a legal rental agreement, a tax statement or a utility bill. The above source is an official Greek police web site. If you are asked for proof of income and healthcare insurance you might consider drawing the officers attention to the official government guidance.

Warwick


PS There is an online application form which is available in a number of languages, including English but I am not sure exactly how it works. Presumably you submit it and they phone you and tell you where and when to turn up with the documents? There is also an online form for the registration certificate if anybody is applying for the first time.

PPS This is the official Embassy guidance as a pdf

Carolina
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Re: Permanent Residence Document

Postby Carolina » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:19 pm

Kilkis wrote:Although not listed, you will also be asked for proof of address which, according to the Embassy, could be a legal rental agreement, a tax statement or a utility bill. The above source is an official Greek police web site. If you are asked for proof of income and healthcare insurance you might consider drawing the officers attention to the official government guidance.

Warwick


That statement 'although not listed' kind of blows the whole thing out of the water, regarding directing the police to their own website! By the same token the proof of income and healthcare may still be required, even if not listed. I wouldn't take the Enabassy's word for it, they have a disclaimer on that PDF document which states " Please note that this information is provided as a guide only. Every care has been taken to ensure the accuracy of this information which is not exhaustive. '

According to the EU Europa website, https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/r ... dex_en.htm it says, for permanent residence document : -

"The authorities may no longer require you to prove that you have a job, sufficient resources, health insurance, and so on."
But then goes on to say -
"You need to send different supporting documents with your application, depending on your situation (employed, self-employed, jobseeker, pensioner, student). This could include:

- a valid registration certificate issued when you arrived in the host country
- evidence that you've been living in the country, such as utility bills and rental contracts
- evidence such as payslips, bank statements, tax returns that you've been working, studying, self-employed, self-sufficient or looking for work.


Back to square one me thinks. i.e. you should supply whatever the police station you are dealing with asks for.

bobscott
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Re: Permanent Residence Document

Postby bobscott » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:21 pm

Kilkis wrote: If you are asked for proof of income and healthcare insurance you might consider drawing the officers attention to the official government guidance.

Warwick





Then again, you might not want to get involved with what would be a fairly heated exchange (I imagine) with someone who thinks they make the laws!

But you are of course right Warwick. Anna picked up her blue doc from Vrysses this morning having provided tax and IKA information plus all the other stuff. Oh, and was asked for 50 cents - presumably a donation to the police retirement fund!
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Carolina
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Re: Permanent Residence Document

Postby Carolina » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:24 pm

bobscott wrote:
Kilkis wrote: If you are asked for proof of income and healthcare insurance you might consider drawing the officers attention to the official government guidance.

Warwick





Then again, you might not want to get involved with what would be a fairly heated exchange (I imagine) with someone who thinks they make the laws!
!


Agreed, Bob!

Kilkis
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Re: Permanent Residence Document

Postby Kilkis » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:44 pm

I wasn't quoting the Embassy. I added a link to the Embassy advice for information but I deliberately avoided quoting the Embassy advice, not because I think it is wrong but it is not official Greek advice. I was quoting the Greek police web site.

A Directive is an instruction to a member state to implement laws that conform to that directive. If the member state implements a law that diverges from what the Directive says then the member state is fined by the EU and ordered to amend the law to bring it into line. I would be surprised if the Greek law did not reflect what Article 16 of the Directive says. The official Greek police web site reflects exactly what the Directive says and I would expect the official police web site to reflect what the Greek law says. Further the guidance web page on the Registration certificate does stipulate the additional information required under Article 7 indicating that there is a real difference between the two procedures, as there should be. In addition the two online application forms list different documentation for the two procedures.

My bet would be that the police in Chania and Vrysses, and probably countless other police stations across Greece, do not know that there is a difference and they are simply doing what they did since the days of the old residence permit. I've usually found it possible to question requests for information without causing a big argument. Obviously, at the end of the day you need to do whatever the person in authority says or you don't get what you want. Knowing exactly what is required might be important for anybody who cannot produce the necessary documents. In that case they may as well challenge what is being requested because they are not going to get what they want if they don't.

Warwick

YoMo2
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Re: Permanent Residence Document

Postby YoMo2 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:53 am

Kilkis wrote:..........PS There is an online application form which is available in a number of languages, including English but I am not sure exactly how it works. Presumably you submit it and they phone you and tell you where and when to turn up with the documents?.......


This might be the way to go since it specifically quotes at the bottom the 3 documents you should bring with you:

passport
the beige registration certificate
proof of address

Ideally you would print off the application form and wave that at the official if they start asking for other paperwork. I couldn't immediately see how you can do that, nor is it obvious what happens after you submit the form online.

No mention of photos!!

Andrew

SatCure
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Re: Permanent Residence Document

Postby SatCure » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:12 am

I must have missed something. I have a beige (indefinite) residency permit. Are you saying that this (indefinite) permit is no longer indefinite?

P.s. I just used it to renew my IKA book in Haniá.

Kilkis
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Re: Permanent Residence Document

Postby Kilkis » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:26 am

The Registration Certificate (beige) is still indefinite but it is not the same status as a Permanent Residency Document (blue). The former is a legal obligation once you remain more than 3 months in Greece. It does not expire. The latter is an optional document that you are entitled to once you have lived more than 5 years in Greece.

It is possible that whatever documentation is required to remain in Greece after Brexit it may be easier to get that documentation if you hold the latter rather than the former. This is prompting many people who qualify for the latter to apply for it. This is based on the interim agreement reached on the rights of citizens between the UK and the EU a few weeks ago. Obviously that is not certain until a final agreement is reached but it is the best information available at this time. It was discussed extensively in this thread.

Warwick


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