IKA INFO FOR THE BUILDERS

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Charliesangel
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:42 pm

IKA INFO FOR THE BUILDERS

Postby Charliesangel » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:16 am

Hi,
can anyone please tell me...
if the construction company did'nt pay the IKA contributions for the workers, before applying to build someones house, surely they could not have been able to proceed with the build, without all the relevant paperwork, and permits? also, i read that the person who has power of attorney at the time, is also responsible, to make sure this is done.....ie the lawyer. And should the lawyer have all the paperwork pertaining to this, in their files?

Cruc
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:30 pm
Location: Cheltenham and Kokkino Chorio

Re: IKA INFO FOR THE BUILDERS

Postby Cruc » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:49 am

When we had our villa built in 2014 we were advised by our accountant to make sure we received and forwarded to him the pink slips from the builder to prove that the IKA payments had been paid. We were advised that as we had employed the builder that we would be held responsible for the payments. Once the build had been finished the accountant made sure the the IKA payments were correct and married up to the payments we had made to the builder.

We have also been told by a friend that his brother has had to pay a fine and also the IKA payments that was not payed by the builder who has since gone broke.

We also needed the IKA payment slips to obtain our final electrical connection. :D
Regards
Cruc

Kilkis
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Location: Near Chania

Re: IKA INFO FOR THE BUILDERS

Postby Kilkis » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:15 am

I think, but don't know for sure, that IKA is NOT paid up front. The amount of IKA due to be paid is calculated on the basis of the plans submitted and a schedule of payments is issued with the building permit BUT the payments are not actually made until each stage is complete. For example if the schedule says €X for pouring the concrete foundation the builder should pay €X AFTER the concrete foundation is poured etc. Since IKA doesn't know when each stage is complete, some building work stretches out over a long time as the owner can afford it, they don't know when to expect payments so the builder can carry on doing more stages without paying. A final check is done that all payments have been made when the application is made to switch from the temporary electrical supply to a permanent supply. This leaves the possibility that the builder can hand the property over to the owner without applying for permanent electricity and so without paying the IKA. It is pretty common. I know a number of people that this has happened to.

The owner is responsible for paying the IKA. If it was not paid by the builder then IKA expects the owner to pay it. You cannot get permanent electricity until it is paid. The only redress the owner has, as far as I can see, is to sue the builder. Good luck with that. I would allow about 10 years a lot of expense and no guarantee that you will win. I know of at least one case where someone paid a developer all the money up front for land and a house. The developer used the money for other purposes and never delivered either the land or the house. The people sued and lost the case.

I suppose in theory you could also sue the lawyer for malpractice but I certainly wouldn't recommend that course of action. He'll probably counter sue you for €1 million for some trumped up reason, e.g. loss of reputation. There is no guarantee that you will win. As the lawyer Martin Vail says in Primal Fear, quoting his law school professor: "If you want justice, go to a whorehouse. If you wanna get f*****d, go to court."

Warwick

Charliesangel
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Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:42 pm

Re: IKA INFO FOR THE BUILDERS

Postby Charliesangel » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:03 pm

cruc,
the accountant should have all the pink slips, then... also, as you say, the lekkie would not have been connected, had the IKA been paid up.
Warwick, your last comment is noted!
K

Kilkis
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Location: Near Chania

Re: IKA INFO FOR THE BUILDERS

Postby Kilkis » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:39 pm

Charliesangel wrote:... also, as you say, the lekkie would not have been connected, had the IKA been paid up...


Have a look at the electricity bill. At top left is the ΔΕΗ logo. Below that it will either say ΕΚΚΑΘΑΡΙΣΤΙΚΟΣ or ΕΝΑΝΤΙ depending on the type of bill, i.e. final or intermediate. Below that is a code that denotes the type of connection. If it says Γ1 or Γ1Ν then you are on a permanent connection which means that somebody must have presented paperwork to ΔΕΗ proving IKA had been paid. If, however, it shows Γ21 then you are still on temporary electricity and nobody has tried to transfer you to permanent. If you do not transfer at some point you will be cut off. You cannot transfer without providing the IKA paperwork.

Warwick

PS Obviously, if you are on permanent electricity, you cannot preclude the possibility that you have been transferred without the necessary IKA paperwork by use of a φακελακι.

Roussa
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:03 pm
Location: Eastern Crete

Re: IKA INFO FOR THE BUILDERS

Postby Roussa » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:38 pm

Kilkis wrote:
Charliesangel wrote:. You cannot transfer without providing the IKA paperwork.

Warwick


That's what we thought too, but..... ( we're in Greece :mrgreen: , so no rule without exceptions)
We do have permanent electricty for years now and still fight with IKA over the payment which wasn't made by the builder.
Even after we went to court and won the case we never got any money from the (broke) builder. Especially as you first have to pay taxes for the possible amount you might get before you can proceed. As always there's no way to get the paid tax back if you fail in collecting any money.

Another curiosity is that everybody in Greece can send you invoices even after the statute of limitations on the debt and you must either pay or go to court. No other way out :roll:

YoMo2
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Location: Milatos, Lasithi

Re: IKA INFO FOR THE BUILDERS

Postby YoMo2 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:05 pm

Kilkis wrote:.......BUT the payments are not actually made until each stage is complete............Warwick


Your comment is generally accurate, Warwick, but unless the system has changed very recently, it's not true to say that payments of IKA are not paid until each stage is complete. IKA payments are due monthly once work has started for every month in which work was done. The builder is supposed to submit a monthly declaration showing how many days were worked that month, split by type of work along the lines you indicated. The actual payment based on the days worked is then due by the end of the following month. Obviously many builders take the view that they are entitled to defer payment till it suits their cashflow. This automatically incurs a small fine each month based on the amount overdue, since it is not in fact allowed.

This is all well and good till the builder decides he is not going to pay any of it, and the homeowner is left holding the baby.

The other thing to watch for is that the builder will make the monthly submission, and give a photocopy to the unsuspecting homeowner, telling him that the IKA has been paid. You need to see the actual receipt, not just the submission.

Hey, ho, it's all good fun, and I'm sure most builders are as honest as the day is long.

Andrew

Cruc
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Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:30 pm
Location: Cheltenham and Kokkino Chorio

Re: IKA INFO FOR THE BUILDERS

Postby Cruc » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:14 pm

Charliesangel wrote:cruc,
the accountant should have all the pink slips, then... also, as you say, the lekkie would not have been connected, had the IKA been paid up.


Yes when the IKA receipt was sent to us we forwarded it straight to the accountant for his records.
Regards

Cruc

Mixos
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Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:26 am
Location: North East Crete or S.W.England

Re: IKA INFO FOR THE BUILDERS

Postby Mixos » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:46 pm

Please sir .... yes you, with his hand up at the back of the class ... how do you know for certain that all IKA has been paid.. after 14 years with no "pink slips" in my possession, no record of where the builder is now, no formal invoice(s) for work carried out, and the "agent" who project managed the conversion has jumped ship to Switzerland? Not saying it wasn't paid, but in the absence of meaningful paperwork (apart from the property deeds and topography of course) how does anyone know? The electricity has been supplied without problem all that time so I assume everything is ticketyboo, but from what others write here, especially Roussa, should I contact the accountant our agent used at the time (not the one I use now) just to be sure?

Kilkis
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Re: IKA INFO FOR THE BUILDERS

Postby Kilkis » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:10 pm

I think you have got your quotes a bit mixed up Rousa. It was indeed me that wrote "You cannot transfer without providing the IKA paperwork." not Charliesangel, as your post suggests. I would, however, also draw your attention to my PS, which might be the cause of your own problem?

The real purpose of my post was to respond to Charliesangel statement that "electricity would not have been connected if IKA had [not] been paid". That is not correct. Temporary electricity can be connected as soon as the building permit is issued. That should not be converted to permanent electricity until IKA has been paid. Many people think they are on permanent electricity when they are not.

You do highlight another issue with taking people to court. Even if you win you won't get any recompense if the person you are suing cannot pay. There have been many classic cases of new businesses carrying on trading under dubious circumstances without any action being taken against them because potential plaintiffs know the company has no money. The second it is bought out by a big player with massive funding the lawyers come crawling out of the woodwork.

I agree with your comment about the requirement to make monthly payments, Andrew, but what if the builder does not declare that any work has been done that month? It is not uncommon in Greece for building work to go in fits and starts and I don't think IKA carry out very rigorous on-site checks. The police will often ask to see a building permit if they see building work being done but I don't believe they check on IKA payments.

Warwick

Jeffstclair
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Location: The centre of the universe

Re: IKA INFO FOR THE BUILDERS

Postby Jeffstclair » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:07 pm

When I speak to my neighbours about things like IKA and building permits , they laugh and say " that's for Athens and the big cities we don't worry about that here, if you want to build something just do it ..no problems " .. it's charming, but I think it's a bit short sighted ...

filippos
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Re: IKA INFO FOR THE BUILDERS

Postby filippos » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:13 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think IKA is supposed be paid for certain types of work even if you Do-It-Yourself. That certainly was the case a few years ago. It applied to things involving new construction work, plumbing, electrics etc., with IKA payable at the rate applicable to the appropriate trades.
It's going back a few years but I know of one case when an inspector "happened to be passing" as a house owner was doing some work. The inspector tried to insist that IKA should be added to the IKA payment as a labourer for the man's neighbour who'd just dropped in for a chat. It resulted in the man having to have a plan drawn up by a civil engineer (and detailing the relevant IKA amounts), and submit it to the building control office for approval. He was told not to start work before approval was confirmed. Maybe that's been changed; I've had no interest in building regs since selling our properties a few years ago.

mouche
Posts: 618
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:43 pm

Re: IKA INFO FOR THE BUILDERS

Postby mouche » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:53 am

filippos wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but I think IKA is supposed be paid for certain types of work even if you Do-It-Yourself. That certainly was the case a few years ago. It applied to things involving new construction work, plumbing, electrics etc., with IKA payable at the rate applicable to the appropriate trades.


It certainly was the case at least upto and including 2012. We (or rather our lawyer) spent the better part of a year sorting this all out. We also experienced that you can have building electricity upto max four years from the time building permit was issued. Building electricity is more expensive than domesti electricity but on the other hand you don't have to pay ENFIA.

Kilkis
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Location: Near Chania

Re: IKA INFO FOR THE BUILDERS

Postby Kilkis » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:10 am

mouche wrote:... but on the other hand you don't have to pay ENFIA.


That was certainly the case when the property tax was charged on the electricity bill but I am not sure if it is still the case now that it is charged directly? Is charging ENFIA still triggered by completing the process for permanent electricity connection or is it now triggered by submission of an E9 declaring the building to the tax authority. I'm not saying it isn't still associated with electricity connection - I honestly don't know?

Warwick

YoMo2
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Location: Milatos, Lasithi

Re: IKA INFO FOR THE BUILDERS

Postby YoMo2 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:32 am

mouche wrote:........Building electricity is more expensive than domesti electricity but on the other hand you don't have to pay ENFIA.


Wrong. As Warwick states, they charge ENFIA based on your E9. You also get stuffed for council taxes you didn't pay while on builders' supply. It may all seem pretty amateur, but in the end, the taxman gets his due. Even more so now when it is all double checked when you sell or transfer a property.

Andrew


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