Storm Clouds.

For discussion, news, comments, questions and information about Crete & Greece.
GlennB
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Storm Clouds.

Postby GlennB » Sun Jul 29, 2018 8:28 pm

Kilkis wrote:I blame the whole thing on bad grammar, in particular the misuse of a single conjunction. Every part of the leave campaign said that if the UK left the EU it could:

    1 Stop paying into the EU budget
    2 Stop implementing EU laws
    3 Stop being under ECJ jurisdiction
    4 Stop free movement of people
    5 Enter into independent trade deals with third countries
    AND
    6 Still have complete access to the EU single market as it had already

It is blatantly obvious from everything the EU has said and everything that has happened in the negotiations the correct conjunction to use was OR Perhaps if people like Farage, Lord Lawson and Boris had been taught grammar better they would have used the correct conjunction and who knows what effect that would have had on the vote?

Warwick


*giggle*

Yep. My Greek is terrible but even I could manage that in the local language 8)

Phild
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:01 pm
Location: Way out West

Re: Storm Clouds.

Postby Phild » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:07 am

bobscott wrote:
Phild wrote:
BST wrote: Could you not see that you MIGHT have to return??


But..., but..., but that would require intelligence and foresight, surely? :D


Yes we do have intelligence and foresight and can see that we MIGHT have to return. Why else would we sell our house and take up rented accommodation again? Bob.


Bob - yes, I am very rude, but I tell it the way I see it.

This remark was aimed at people who voted 'Leave', and had already made a life here. And I know a few people who have done both. They love it here - they like the people, they like the climate, they like the food and drink, they like the lifestyle, and everything else about Crete.

BUT - somehow, they thought that if they voted 'leave', and the UK left the EU, they would be fine to stay here and continue living as before.

Well, if you listen to some of the pundits in the UK, voting 'leave' was mostly about stopping freedom of movement for people wanting to go to the UK from the EU - Now, forgive me if I'm wrong, but this 'freedom of movement' stuff is a two-way street, and always has been - so, logically, if we stop people going from the EU to the UK, it stands to reason that the EU would stop people from the UK going to the EU. A pretty simple argument, that takes some weird style of thinking to deny - Some might say 'irrational', some might say 'stupid'.

Whatever you call it, it is not intelligent thinking.

Now, I don't know (and nobody knows) what will happen in the final agreement (if that is ever produced), but I am going to fight to stay here, whatever happens - and each day I have to do that, I will remember (and curse) the people who voted to make my life more difficult by voting 'Leave'.
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Phil
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bobscott
Posts: 2193
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Location: Kokkino Horio

Re: Storm Clouds.

Postby bobscott » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:52 am

Kilkis wrote:I blame the whole thing on bad grammar, in particular the misuse of a single conjunction. Every part of the leave campaign said that if the UK left the EU it could:

    1 Stop paying into the EU budget
    2 Stop implementing EU laws
    3 Stop being under ECJ jurisdiction
    4 Stop free movement of people
    5 Enter into independent trade deals with third countries
    AND
    6 Still have complete access to the EU single market as it had already

It is blatantly obvious from everything the EU has said and everything that has happened in the negotiations the correct conjunction to use was OR Perhaps if people like Farage, Lord Lawson and Boris had been taught grammar better they would have used the correct conjunction and who knows what effect that would have had on the vote?

Warwick


Nice one! Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Kamisiana
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:06 pm

Re: Storm Clouds.

Postby Kamisiana » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:38 pm

[quote][/quote] They love it here - they like the people, they like the climate, they like the food and drink, they like the lifestyle, and everything else about Crete.

Well that is a typical i am all right jack quote, as most of us Brits live in a bubble here tell that to the average Greek living on the breadline working to give two thirds of there income to the govenment with Greece the most taxed country in the EU (I expect to get a correction on most taxed) .

I personally do not know anyone that voted to stop freedom of movement that is always the remoaners defence ,myself and all the people that I know voted to stop the European commission taking every countries sovereignty away as the hardcore of Brussels just wants a super state that they can control from Brussels their answer is NO to everything unless it is what they want, a lot MEPs and even German MEPs are not happy with the way the hard core are trying to make an example of the UK just to deter other countries from leaving.
Thats my opinion and you have got yours thats freedom of speech

Phild
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:01 pm
Location: Way out West

Re: Storm Clouds.

Postby Phild » Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:43 pm

...everybody is entitled to be mistaken as well, it seems...

Really, it takes no time to do a little research before posting - otherwise what you post just falls into the category of 'fake news'.

Greece is the 6th most taxed country in Europe in 2016 (net taxation), according to Quartz Media LLC - these are probably the latest figures that are available. The most taxed is France, followed by Belgium, Austria, Hungary, and Germany. Yes, the EU have 'stuck it' to Greece over the financial crisis, as a way of refinancing their own banks, but - to be honest - Greece lied to get into the Eurozone in the first place, aided by the denizens of Goldman Sachs, who hid the level of Greek debt from the EU - so Greece is just the easiest 'scape-goat', beloved of right-wingers the world over. I am no lover of Europe's neoliberal policies. As far as I see it, austerity is another mechanism for making the people poorer to the benefit of the banks and elites. However, I personally believe that the best way to change a system is from within.

Oxford University's Centre for Social Investigation at Nuffield College gives the following data for "Reasons why leave voters voted Leave" - the overwhelming reason at nearly 40% of respondents was "I wanted the UK to regain control over EU immigration" - the second most chosen reason at about 35% was "I didn’t want the EU to have any role in UK law-making". No remoaning here, just facts.
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Phil

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filippos
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Contact:

Re: Storm Clouds.

Postby filippos » Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:57 pm

Whatever side they're on the people I can't stand are those that have the attitude that anyone with an opinion different from theirs must be stupid without the intellect to make a considered choice. It's obvious there are some contributors to this board with that attitude. I'm happy to debate all day long on most topics with anyone who has a different opinion and uses logical argument to persuade me to take a different view but I refuse to engage with anyone who condemns my point of view because I'm mentally inadequate. It's nothing less than thoughtless arrogance. "I'm right and anyone who disagrees is stupid."

It's much the same tactic as used by some on the subject of immigration, for example. During a group discussion a friend suggested there should be more checks for evidence of criminal history before granting entry to the UK. Before any cogent opposing view ws put forward he was accused of "...just being racist". He'd prefaced his comment by saying, "Regardless of nationality or ethnicity,.... What made the accusation really laughable was that he's Anglo/Argentinian, married to a Ghanaian.

BST
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:29 pm

Re: Storm Clouds.

Postby BST » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:26 pm

I am sure there are people on the forum who could not vote but support Brexit. I do not want to insult anyone but I sometimes get very cross about the awful uncertainty of knowing what the future holds. I have a few relatives in the UK who voted Brexit and still want to leave and relatives who voted Brexit who feel they have been lied to and would not vote the same again. But I just don't get it... how could you prefer living here but support Brexit knowing that you might have to return to the UK along with many other expats. Please do explain.... Perhaps I'm just being very selfish and it's a sacrifice I'll have to make for the good of the UK?

altohb
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:51 pm
Location: Sitia

Re: Storm Clouds.

Postby altohb » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:50 pm

Whatever any of us thinks about Brexit, and what I think isn't printable in a polite forum, the latest information from the UK Government is here - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/advice-for-british-nationals-travelling-and-living-in-europe?utm_source=26cbaac9-3747-407c-b7bf-5de8a07364db&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=govuk-notifications&utm_content=immediate.

paul g
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Location: Nr. Kato Gouves

Re: Storm Clouds.

Postby paul g » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:20 pm

Never argue with an idiot, he will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.

scooby
Posts: 1149
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Location: Agia Nr Chania

Re: Storm Clouds.

Postby scooby » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:29 pm

BST wrote:I am sure there are people on the forum who could not vote but support Brexit. I do not want to insult anyone but I sometimes get very cross about the awful uncertainty of knowing what the future holds. I have a few relatives in the UK who voted Brexit and still want to leave and relatives who voted Brexit who feel they have been lied to and would not vote the same again. But I just don't get it... how could you prefer living here but support Brexit knowing that you might have to return to the UK along with many other expats. Please do explain.... Perhaps I'm just being very selfish and it's a sacrifice I'll have to make for the good of the UK?
You never know maybe Greece will also kick out the Russians, Americans and anyone else who is not a member of the EU? Brits may have to jump a couple of hoops to stay but my best guess is it won't be a problem and will be the same for EU members in the UK.
Men in suits will always make you pay.

Phild
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:01 pm
Location: Way out West

Re: Storm Clouds.

Postby Phild » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:18 pm

scooby wrote: Brits may have to jump a couple of hoops to stay but my best guess is it won't be a problem and will be the same for EU members in the UK.


Of course, the real problem is that we just don't know yet - More than 2 years after the vote, we still know nothing concrete.

filippos wrote:Whatever side they're on the people I can't stand are those that have the attitude that anyone with an opinion different from theirs must be stupid without the intellect to make a considered choice.


The only issue I have is with people who voted 'Leave' and want all the benefits of 'Remain', such as freedom of movement, and the ability to live in an EU country without restriction. The fabled "cake and eat it" scenario. That is a truly irrational standpoint.

I would love to see a rational argument for Brexit over Remain in the economic sphere, but I haven't come across one yet that isn't very long-term speculation involving either China or the USA as close trading partners - What we would have to give up to maintain those links can only be the subject of pure speculation at the moment (e.g. Chlorine-washed chicken).

In the political sphere, the only arguments for Brexit over remain lie in right-wing policies which will probably degrade people's rights, making the average working person worse off in the long run.

I was hoping that Warwick might be able to give some examples of the economics of Brexit vs. Remain, but he might well be just too sensible to get involved at this point... :D
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Phil

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Brian
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 11:21 pm

Re: Storm Clouds.

Postby Brian » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:01 pm

I will make some teeny weeny allowance for any expat who voted leave giving the blatant lies the Leave side promulgated on the lead in to the referendum. But, to continue arguing in favour of leaving in spite of the myriad of serious problems leaving will entail, beggars belief, and leaves open the charge of gross stupidity to be levied on the proponents of a Cliff-edge exit. There are no better or more valid words to describe this Lemming like behaviour.
But to be fair to those on this forum who still believe that exiting is good for Britain I will ask them, one more time! to name, apart from what Britain enjoys already, one or two compelling reasons why Britain should cut itself off economically from the EU?

BST
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:29 pm

Re: Storm Clouds.

Postby BST » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:34 pm

"You never know maybe Greece will also kick out the Russians, Americans and anyone else who is not a member of the EU?,"

Well I doubt it as deals have been done with Russia, America and China! Not sure how they are fixed in relation to health care?

Kilkis
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Location: Near Chania

Re: Storm Clouds.

Postby Kilkis » Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:26 am

Phild wrote:...I was hoping that Warwick might be able to give some examples of the economics of Brexit vs. Remain, but he might well be just too sensible to get involved at this point... :D


Impossible to predict and highly variable. One thing you can be certain of is that countries don't pay tariffs, you the consumer do. Going to WTO rules will increase the cost of many items in the UK. It's often said that WTO tariffs overall would average out to around 2 % but that is very misleading. There are everyday foodstuffs that can be as high as 250 %. There will be many negative short to medium term effects with possible unknown long term benefits.

The sad thing is that the biggest negative effects may be due to immigration controls not tariffs. Immigrants typically are not stealing UK workers jobs they are doing jobs that no UK worker wants to do. Most are not working for peanuts as is always portrayed. There was a feature article on Sky News today showing a typical farm employing east European labour. He is paying well above what the government classes as the national living wage, especially for the younger workers, which most of them are, and only a little below what the Living Wage Foundation asks employers to pay. Considering he is also providing accommodation in the form of large static caravans that is a pretty good deal. About 1 % of his workforce is of UK origin. They do not bring their families with them so there is no impact on schools. They are young fit and healthy so there is no real impact on the NHS. Accommodation is provided so there is no impact on local housing. They are all paying income tax and National Insurance. They stay in the UK for the picking season and then go elsewhere so they are not permanent. He is already struggling to recruit enough workers, because they are unsure of what their status will be and also the declining pound means that the wages are not as attractive when converted to Euro. He is already leaving food to rot in the fields because he cannot recruit enough staff. This is before any immigration controls are in place. This is not project fear. This is real people working in real fields harvesting real food to ship to real supermarkets and it is in decline before the UK has even exited.

The decline in real term wage levels in the UK is not due to immigration. It is due to the high skill and hence higher pay jobs being exported over the last 50 years. The top 10 % have benefited massively while the middle class has been hollowed out. Migrants make a convenient scapegoat so that nobody examines too closely what is really happening..

Warwick

Kamisiana
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:06 pm

Re: Storm Clouds.

Postby Kamisiana » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:57 am

And what about Albania (and before anyone starts this is not a dig at Albania or Albanians there are a lot live round here that I know and talk to they are hard working helpful and friendly)

Alabania is not in the shengen zone or the EU does any one "KNOW" how they stay in greece, in my local area there are nearly as many Albanians as Brits is it just another case of rules to suit one and not the other.

And my sole reason for me supporting Brexit and the reason the referrendum was call in the first place was after Cameron's last attempt in Febuary 2016 to negosiate with the European Commision, he wanted to opt out of the EU's ambition to form an ever closer union and in a irreversible way Junkers words he and they only have one goal power.
I may have shot myself in the foot or I maynot have, but I have red lines and principels to, the common market started off good then got hijacked by the power crazed fanatics who want to rule Europe, history is full of them 1939-45 comes to mind.


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