PROPERTY REGISTRATION

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evansmr1
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PROPERTY REGISTRATION

Postby evansmr1 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:11 am

I read in our local Greek Newspaper that all Property Owners must register with the Hellenic Land Registry their property by 18 March 2019. If the property is not registered it may be declared to be owned by the state.
Registration is to the Local Land Registry or www.ktimatologio.gr.

Can anyone throw light on this. I was of the opinion that providing the House is not an illegal build/refurbish it would automatically be registered by the Company having the plans approved.
Mike
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Sic parvis magnaike

Carolina
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Re: PROPERTY REGISTRATION

Postby Carolina » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:31 am

Hi Mike, there was a discussion about this on a thread a few days ago. See viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11515

Kilkis
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Re: PROPERTY REGISTRATION

Postby Kilkis » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:16 pm

evansmr1 wrote:..I was of the opinion that providing the House is not an illegal build/refurbish it would automatically be registered by the Company having the plans approved.


I believe it is the notary contract showing who owns the property that is registered with the local land registry, ktimatologio. I would expect that to be done by your lawyer. You lawyer should have taken the notary contract to the land registry where the details would be entered in a register and a certificate issued to prove that it had been done. The certificate would give the volume and page number of the registry entry.

For example when my late wife and I bought our land, with no house on it, the contract transferring ownership of the land to us was registered and I got a certificate to prove it. When my wife died and ownership of her 50 % of the property, which now had a house on it, was transferred to me through a new contract drawn up by a notary that was also registered with the local land registry and a new certificate was issued. I am not aware of anything being registered with them in the intervening period when the house was built but I could be wrong. I think that would be dealt with by a different organisation.

Land registry is about legal title not what is on the property and whether that is legal or not.

Warwick

grannyM
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Re: PROPERTY REGISTRATION

Postby grannyM » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:14 pm

Are there any updates on this please? We've just returned to Crete and are told by folk on the street that our property and land needs to be re-registered, even though all processes were fulfilled at time of land purchase, house build, garage build etc. and taxes paid over the recent years.
Where must we go? Accountant, architect? Have there been any legal challenges? If all is in order why should the landholder incur additional costs when the Government's aim is no doubt to get people who aren't paying tax?

Kilkis
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Re: PROPERTY REGISTRATION

Postby Kilkis » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:45 pm

Unlike most western countries, Greece has never had a fully functioning national land registry. Up to a few years ago the only registries were local ones where the contract transferring ownership was registered but not full details of the property/land. You should have a certificate showing that this was done.

Greece has been in the process of establishing a National Land Register for several years now. Periodically new regions of Greece are included and so people who own property within that region have to go online or to their local office and provide all the necessary paperwork in order to get their property registered. Lasithi is one of the latest regions required to do this so yes, Grannym, you do need to take action. There is further information in this thread.

Warwick

grannyM
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Re: PROPERTY REGISTRATION

Postby grannyM » Mon Mar 04, 2019 5:54 pm

Thank you for clarifying. Now can you tell us whether or not we can do this ourselves once we get the correct documentation gathered up. How do we proceed?

We are confused re the ΠΙΣΤΟΠΟΙΗΤΙΚΟ ΜΕΤΑΓΡΑΦΗΣ. We have a Land Registration Document called Antigrafo, covered in stamps.The Government legal chap who processed this is called an Symbolaiografos. Are these one and the same ?
We bought land, built on it, and later registered an illegal garage. We seem to have the paper work other than this ΠΙΣΤΟΠΟΙΗΤΙΚΟ ΜΕΤΑΓΡΑΦΗΣ.
Can't see anything with the other terms mentioned with the file.
Help,
I'm sure you'll have some words of wisdom,.
Thanks

Tim
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Re: PROPERTY REGISTRATION

Postby Tim » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:40 pm

You don't say where in Lassithi you are, grannym. If you don't have the ΠΙΣΤΟΠΟΙΗΤΙΚΟ ΜΕΤΑΓΡΑΦΗΣ you will need to order one. If you're in the Sitia area I can direct you to the appropriate office, but be aware that there is now a very long waiting list for replacement documents and I believe that the Land Registry are now taking registrations without the ΠΙΣΤΟΠΟΙΗΤΙΚΟ ΜΕΤΑΓΡΑΦΗΣ which has to be presented at a later date when it is available.

Tim

Kilkis
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Re: PROPERTY REGISTRATION

Postby Kilkis » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:23 pm

I may have got that wrong, Tim. It is Evansmr1, who started the thread, who lives in Lasithi, i.e. Pirgos near Kalo Chorio not too far from Aghios Nikolaos. I am not sure if Grannym does live in Lasithi.

Antigrafo, i.e. αντιγραφο, simply means copy or transcript or duplicate and a Symbolaiografos, i.e. Συμβολαιογραφος, is a notary. So the document is a copy of something and has been notarised by a notary to show that it is a valid copy. As to what it is a copy of I have no idea.

In principle you can do everything yourself but I would suggest getting help from someone.

Warwick

Tim
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Re: PROPERTY REGISTRATION

Postby Tim » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:55 pm

If grannym doesn't live in Lassithi she doesn't need to worry about it ..... Yet.

grannyM
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Re: PROPERTY REGISTRATION

Postby grannyM » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:55 pm

No not in Lassithi, in the Heraklion District. Don't think we ever had such a document. The house was built for us by a local builder, on land we had purchased. Who should have supplied it?

Tim
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Re: PROPERTY REGISTRATION

Postby Tim » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:04 pm

The Notary should have given it to you. Judging by the situation in Lassithi many purchasers didn't get one. Easily replaced , will cost you 10 Euro. There's no rush to get it - new Land Registration is only in Lassithi at the moment.

Tim

Kilkis
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Re: PROPERTY REGISTRATION

Postby Kilkis » Tue Mar 05, 2019 12:16 am

grannyM wrote:No not in Lassithi, in the Heraklion District. Don't think we ever had such a document. The house was built for us by a local builder, on land we had purchased. Who should have supplied it?


I think Heraklion prefecture is also taking registrations now. I believe Rethymnon and Chania have not yet started. Below is a quote from a 10/01/2019 News Announcement (my emphasis in red):

    Finally, the deadline for the submission of declarations for the regional unit of Heraklion (Crete), which will begin in the second half of January 2019 (there will be a new announcement), is in three months for residents of Greece and in six months for expatriates and the Greek State.

When you bought the land you would have received a copy of the contract prepared by the Notary and signed by you and the seller. The Notary also keeps a copy on file. You, or normally your lawyer, should have taken that contract to the local land registry and had the change of ownership registered in that land register, basically a set of ledgers. The land registry then issues a certificate to verify that the change of ownership has been registered. The certificate fills about half an A4 sheet and states the contract reference number, the name of the Notary that prepared the contract, the land registry volume and page number it is registered on and the date it was entered in the register.

Warwick

grannyM
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Re: PROPERTY REGISTRATION

Postby grannyM » Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:47 am

Well that is a very clear reply Warwick. Many thanks. We had a dire solicitor and I wonder if she just failed to pass it on. Still if you can get a copy there is a chance of rectifying it, I suppose!
We had so many crises during the early years and had grown a bit complacent, so dismayed to be back on the bureaucratic roundabout. So many bits of paper that are meaningless to us, although we kept them all.
At least we got back at the right time. If we'd been away for 6 months maybe we wouldn't have had a place to return to!
Much appreciate the expertise and advice!

Kilkis
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Re: PROPERTY REGISTRATION

Postby Kilkis » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:55 am

Living in Chania Prefecture I haven't had to do it yet but when I do I fully intend to get my accountant to help me and normally he does not charge for extra work. In 12 years he has made an extra charge twice and, given the amount of extra work he had to do on those two occasions, I think he was fully justified in doing so. I also expect to pay him for doing this.

Elsewhere it has been said that an accountant is not the best person to do it and a lawyer or civil engineer would be more appropriate. I can understand the logic to that argument but I slightly disagree with it. Your accountant already has a lot of information about the property because he has to file an E9 Form to the tax authority. As far as I am aware it is possible to file everything online submitting pdf copies of all necessary documents and one route into that system is using your Taxiusnet ID and password plus AFM. My accountant has all that information to hand and uses it on a regular basis. I am happy to gather together all the necessary documents, with my accountant telling me what is needed and where to get them, and then supplying them to him in pdf format. He can then forward me the payment demand and I can pay it online. Finally he can check that the property is correctly entered in the register and provide me with a certificate/copy of the entry.

I am not saying that people should not use a lawyer/engineer or should not do it themselves. Everybody must make their own decisions based on their own circumstances. I have a continuous long standing relationship with my accountant but a very intermittent one with a lawyer and with an engineer so my accountant would be my first choice. I am sure I could do it all myself, I have navigated much more bureaucratic processes with little or no help, but in this case I prefer to employ a professional.

Warwick

grannyM
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Re: PROPERTY REGISTRATION

Postby grannyM » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:57 am

Glad to report that the missing document was there all along but didn't seem to match the description. Our accountant doesn't handle this but a Civil Engineer does. He needs to come out to get "army co-ordinates" on our existing topography and we need to give him Power of Attorney to handle it from there. His fee covers this and isn't unreasonable. The Government also exacts fees and as we are joint owners we have to pay twice apparently ( not half as in land tax) , and as we have separate approvals for house and garage an other double fee for that. Happily we can afford it although our Greek neighbours maybe can't . They are much more relaxed about the deadlines as they have been told that there is no way they can be met.
There was no official notification about this from anyone. Of course if I'd been on your site or watched the media I would have been more prepared, but you'd have thought each property owner should have received a notification well in advance. Yes, I know it's Greece!
Hopefully I will be more alert in future...one lives in hope!


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