Quad bike - tax, insurance etc.

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Howard
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:08 pm

Quad bike - tax, insurance etc.

Postby Howard » Fri Aug 09, 2019 11:31 am

Please, are the legal requirements re a quad bike the same as for a car (road tax, insurance, KTEO)?

Kamisiana
Posts: 354
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:06 pm

Re: Quad bike - tax, insurance etc.

Postby Kamisiana » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:08 pm

Howard wrote:Please, are the legal requirements re a quad bike the same as for a car (road tax, insurance, KTEO)?


Yes and don't forget tax return and accountant.

Blakey_Bloke
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 5:59 pm

Re: Quad bike - tax, insurance etc.

Postby Blakey_Bloke » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:22 pm

Forgive my (marked) ignorance Kamisiana, but why would a vehicle need to be included on a tax return? It is an outgoing after all. TIA

Blakey_Bloke

Jeffstclair
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Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:00 pm
Location: The centre of the universe

Re: Quad bike - tax, insurance etc.

Postby Jeffstclair » Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:46 pm

Blakey_Bloke wrote:Forgive my (marked) ignorance Kamisiana, but why would a vehicle need to be included on a tax return? It is an outgoing after all. TIA

Blakey_Bloke



In Greece a vehicle is seen as an asset .

altohb
Posts: 914
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:51 pm
Location: Sitia

Re: Quad bike - tax, insurance etc.

Postby altohb » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:00 pm

Jeffstclair wrote:
Blakey_Bloke wrote:Forgive my (marked) ignorance Kamisiana, but why would a vehicle need to be included on a tax return? It is an outgoing after all. TIA

Blakey_Bloke



In Greece a vehicle is seen as an asset .


Which needs to be declared on the return the following year - ie if you buy one now you will need to declare it on the 2019 return which is submitted in 2020.

Kilkis
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Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Quad bike - tax, insurance etc.

Postby Kilkis » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:39 pm

It is also used, along with other assets such as property, a swimming pool, a car, a boat, a light aircraft etc, to calculate an imputed income. If you declare less than the imputed income you get taxed on the imputed income. If you declare more than the imputed income you get taxed on your declared income.

Warwick

Blakey_Bloke
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 5:59 pm

Re: Quad bike - tax, insurance etc.

Postby Blakey_Bloke » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:08 am

Kilkis wrote:It is also used, along with other assets such as property, a swimming pool, a car, a boat, a light aircraft etc, to calculate an imputed income. If you declare less than the imputed income you get taxed on the imputed income. If you declare more than the imputed income you get taxed on your declared income.

Warwick


Now I'm really confused!
Is a second-hand vehicle purchase subject to VAT? If so, you pay tax to buy it, you pay tax on the fuel you use to drive it, you pay annual road tax, and then you get to pay tax on it on your annual return??
Is this a one-off taxation, the year following the purchase, or is it annually for the duration of vehicle ownership?
Also Warwick, are you informed somehow what the imputed income is prior to submitting the tax return or is it all down to chance?

TIA
Blakey_Bloke

Kamisiana
Posts: 354
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:06 pm

Re: Quad bike - tax, insurance etc.

Postby Kamisiana » Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:24 am

Blakey_Bloke wrote:
Kilkis wrote:It is also used, along with other assets such as property, a swimming pool, a car, a boat, a light aircraft etc, to calculate an imputed income. If you declare less than the imputed income you get taxed on the imputed income. If you declare more than the imputed income you get taxed on your declared income.

Warwick


Now I'm really confused!
Is a second-hand vehicle purchase subject to VAT? If so, you pay tax to buy it, you pay tax on the fuel you use to drive it, you pay annual road tax, and then you get to pay tax on it on your annual return??
Is this a one-off taxation, the year following the purchase, or is it annually for the duration of vehicle ownership?
Also Warwick, are you informed somehow what the imputed income is prior to submitting the tax return or is it all down to chance?

TIA
Blakey_Bloke


You forgot the transfer tax you must pay when you purchase a second hand vehicle, Happy days welcome to Greece and hence the national past time of tax avoidance :lol:

Kilkis
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Quad bike - tax, insurance etc.

Postby Kilkis » Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:09 am

Blakey_Bloke wrote:...Is a second-hand vehicle purchase subject to VAT?


Not as far as I know. Certainly it doesn't apply to private sales. You would need to ask a dealer to find out if they have to pay VAT.

Blakey_Bloke wrote:...and then you get to pay tax on it on your annual return??
Is this a one-off taxation, the year following the purchase, or is it annually for the duration of vehicle ownership?...


Not exactly. You are not paying tax on the vehicle as such. All tax authorities look for discrepancies between the income a person declares on their tax return and what you might deduce their income is based on their lifestyle. For example HMRC do it on a rather ad-hoc basis. In Greece under declaring income is endemic so the Greek tax authority do it on a routine basis using a formulaic approach. They deduce a minimum income that they believe you must have based on certain things that you own, called your imputed income. If you declare less than that they assume you are lying and calculate the income tax that would be due on that imputed income. If you declare more it has no effect at all. The new government is talking about changing this process and moving to something more like HMRC although the details are not yet known. It applies every year as long as you own the vehicle.

Blakey_Bloke wrote:...Also Warwick, are you informed somehow what the imputed income is prior to submitting the tax return or is it all down to chance?...


It is certainly not chance but, unless you calculate it yourself, you will only know what it is when you get your tax return. Your accountant can tell you how it is derived. It is calculated using a formula and is based on things like the area of your house, whether it is a holiday home or you live there full time, whether it is detached, the engine capacity of your car, how old it is etc. If you PM me an email address I can send you a spreadsheet that calculates it for you although I can't guarantee the figures used are completely up-to-date. My declared income is always more than my imputed income so I don.t bother checking it.

I get the feeling people are not really understanding this. To try to clarify. It is NOT a tax on the car. You are taxed on your income. The fact that you own a car, and other things, is used to determine the minimum income the tax authority believes you must have to support your lifestyle.

Warwick

altohb
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:51 pm
Location: Sitia

Re: Quad bike - tax, insurance etc.

Postby altohb » Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:17 am

Further to what Warwick has just said. The Greek tax authority seems to have no concept that people buy certain items out of capital. If you can get your head round that, then the notion of imputed income makes a little more sense - outrageous though it seems to those of us who are used to being taxed on income in a "proper" manner.

Kilkis
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Quad bike - tax, insurance etc.

Postby Kilkis » Sun Aug 11, 2019 11:41 am

altohb wrote:...The Greek tax authority seems to have no concept that people buy certain items out of capital...


True but it's even worse that that. No intelligence is applied at all. Someone with a two litre car costing €15,000 and someone owning one with the same engine capacity but costing €100,000 would have the same imputed income. Someone owning a 100 sqm house in a village in the White Mountains would have the same imputed income as someone owning a 120 Sqm apartment in Kolonaki, because a house is assessed as a higher imputed income than an apartment and location is not considered. Someone owning a beat up ancient fishing boat would have the same imputed income as someone owning a luxury speedboat if they were the same length.

The system predominantly persecutes the honest poor and does nothing to catch the tax evading rich. Consider two people:

    1 An honest pensioner who worked all his life, paid all his taxes and, over his working life, bought a 110 sqm house in a rural village on an island. The house is worth about €100,000 and the person owns it outright. He also owns a 9 year old Seat Leon with a 1.8 litre engine, which he originally bought new when he was working. He now receives a pension of €6,000 per year which he declares to the tax authority. The tax authority calculates an imputed income of around €10,000 and so calculates his tax liability on the basis of an income of €10,000 not the €6,000 that he actually receives despite the fact that the pension organisation tells the tax authority exactly what they are paying the person..

    2 A dishonest lawyer who is still working. He owns a 130 sqm apartment in Kolonaki in central Athens worth about €1 million and a five year old Mercedes SLK 200, which also has a 1.8 Litre engine. He has an income of €180,000 per year but declares an income of €11,000. The tax authority also calculate his imputed income as about €10,000 so they tax him on his declared income of €11,000.

Thus the dishonest lawyer pays only a few Euro more in income tax than the honest pensioner despite receiving 30 times the income. The honest pensioner struggles to find the tax out of his meagre income while the dishonest lawyer is laughing all the way to the bank. The lawyer is never investigated. Every few years he undergoes a tax audit but that simply involves producing copies of receipts issued to clients that add up to €11,000. Job done.

That is the reality of the Greek tax system.

Warwick

mouche
Posts: 679
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:43 pm

Re: Quad bike - tax, insurance etc.

Postby mouche » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:29 am

Kilkis wrote:
altohb wrote: He has an income of €180,000 per year but declares an income of €11,000.


Just like that?

altohb
Posts: 914
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:51 pm
Location: Sitia

Re: Quad bike - tax, insurance etc.

Postby altohb » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:32 am

Mouche, if you are going to quote people, please do so accurately!

Kilkis
Posts: 10957
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Quad bike - tax, insurance etc.

Postby Kilkis » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:10 am

mouche wrote:
Kilkis wrote: He has an income of €180,000 per year but declares an income of €11,000.


Just like that?


Yes. Just like that. There have been many cases reported. A lawyer with a €1 million apartment and a €1 million office in central Athens, both owned outright, declaring an income of under €10,000 per year. A doctor who was suspected of under declaring his income was investigated by the tax authority. Two tax inspectors went to his evening surgery. One waited outside and one sat in his waiting room pretending to be a patient but not going in for treatment. Each time a patient left the one in the waiting room texted his colleague outside. His colleague stopped the patient and asked to see his receipt but not one person had one and they all claimed that they hadn't paid anything. When they confronted the doctor he simply said, "What patients? Those people are just my friends. They know I am here every evening so they drop by for a coffee and a chat. I didn't treat anyone so why would I charge anyone?"

Warwick

PS Original quote corrected.

mouche
Posts: 679
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:43 pm

Re: Quad bike - tax, insurance etc.

Postby mouche » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:08 pm

altohb wrote:Mouche, if you are going to quote people, please do so accurately!


Oh dear, I'm awfully sorry! To whom do I pay what compensation please?


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