Tax proof in the UK

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audacity
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Tax proof in the UK

Postby audacity » Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:32 pm

Hi Guys!
My mum is living in Crete, she isn’t yet resident, but she will need to do that very soon.
Her Greek bank have asked for a paper from the uk tax office to show what tax she’s paid.
She has always either been on benefits, then purely on a pension, she has never been in a position to pay tax in the uk.
Can anyone tell us what paper she needs and how she gets it?
She’s very confused.
I understand that every Uk person in Greece needs to do this??
Thanks in advance!

Kilkis
Posts: 11513
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Tax proof in the UK

Postby Kilkis » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:22 pm

Normally this would be part of Know Your Customer (KYC) and Money Laundering regulations. Banks are supposed to check that the amount of money going through your account is consistent with your income. In Greece the government is also using the bank as a secondary tax inspector, i.e. the bank is checking if the money going through your account matches the money you are declaring to the tax authority. Hence the request for a tax certificate.

I presume the pension you refer to is a UK State Pension. In the UK if the total income a person receives in a year is less than the personal allowance then often HMRC does not require that person to submit a tax return so no relevant document would exist. There are two possibilities:

    1 Every year DWP send a letter stating what her UK State Pension will be per week for the following year. If she still has that letter she could take that to the bank with a print out of the UK government web page showing the personal allowance and try telling the bank that she does not need to submit a tax return because her UK State Pension is her only income and that is less than the personal allowance. If that does not work:
    2 She could ask HMRC for a letter stating that because her total income is less than the personal allowance she does not need to submit a tax return. I am not sure if they will issue such a letter but there is no harm in asking. I would also ask DWP for a statement of her pension paid in the last year. DWP don't like doing this but they will do it if you explain that the Greek tax authority require it. I wouldn't mention that it is the bank that needs it. I would then give copies of both documents to the bank. If HMRC will not issue such a letter I would print off from the internet the web page showing the personal allowance and give that to the bank with the DWP statement and explain that the income is less than the personal allowance so she does not need to pay tax or submit a tax return.

In either case make sure she keeps the letter stating her weekly pension each year in case she is asked again. I am tax resident in Greece and I declare all my income to the Greek tax authority. In my case the UK State Pension is treated as not taxable in Greece but remains taxable in the UK so for someone who only has a UK State Pension and no other income it shouldn't really matter if they are tax resident in the UK or Greece. Not all Greek accountants are aware of this and some declare the UK State Pension as taxable. It would then be liable for income tax in Greece. Get a good accountant.

Warwick

jane m clayton
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Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:00 pm

Re: Tax proof in the UK

Postby jane m clayton » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:24 pm

We are in a similar situation, so don't pay UK tax. We provide an annual 'statement' from the UK Pensions Office, (it's the equivalent of a P60) which they send on request and a P60 provided by the insurance firm that covers my husband's small private pension. Sounds like the first of these is what she needs, an accountant in Greece will tell her if there is anything else.

thebigbluecheese
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:54 am

Re: Tax proof in the UK

Postby thebigbluecheese » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:08 pm

I phoned HMCR a couple of weeks ago as I needed a statement for the past 3years . I also needed a tax resident certificate showing I am tax resident in the uk .. I was sent the statement which arrived at my uk address within 3 days and was informed I could apply for the tax resident certificate on line , sure enough , on the govt HMCR web site I applied , took my about 3 minutes and I received the certifcate within a week .. My wife telephoned today fir a statement , even though shevays no tax , and was told a statement would be in the postvwithin the next few days , shebalso applied fir her tax residency certificate on line

AliceG
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:28 pm

Re: Tax proof in the UK

Postby AliceG » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:01 pm

thebigbluecheese wrote:I phoned HMCR a couple of weeks ago as I needed a statement for the past 3years . I also needed a tax resident certificate showing I am tax resident in the uk .. I was sent the statement which arrived at my uk address within 3 days and was informed I could apply for the tax resident certificate on line , sure enough , on the govt HMCR web site I applied , took my about 3 minutes and I received the certifcate within a week .. My wife telephoned today fir a statement , even though shevays no tax , and was told a statement would be in the postvwithin the next few days , shebalso applied fir her tax residency certificate on line


Hello
Your situation sounds similar to mine. My sole income is from U.K. employer. Can I use the U.K. tax residency certificate to register with Greek tax system and thus avoid paying Greek tax?

bobscott
Posts: 2637
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:36 pm
Location: Kokkino Horio

Re: Tax proof in the UK

Postby bobscott » Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:04 pm

thebigbluecheese wrote:I phoned HMCR a couple of weeks ago as I needed a statement for the past 3years . I also needed a tax resident certificate showing I am tax resident in the uk .. I was sent the statement which arrived at my uk address within 3 days and was informed I could apply for the tax resident certificate on line , sure enough , on the govt HMCR web site I applied , took my about 3 minutes and I received the certifcate within a week .. My wife telephoned today fir a statement , even though shevays no tax , and was told a statement would be in the postvwithin the next few days , shebalso applied fir her tax residency certificate on line


I'd be interested in getting a link from you for the tax residency certificate please? I have trawled through endless pages on the HMRC website and got precisely nowhere! Thanks. Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Kilkis
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Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Tax proof in the UK

Postby Kilkis » Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:29 pm

This any good, Bob.

Warwick

bobscott
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Location: Kokkino Horio

Re: Tax proof in the UK

Postby bobscott » Thu Feb 20, 2020 2:35 pm

Kilkis wrote:This any good, Bob.

Warwick


It's OK until you get to the bit about why you think you are tax resident in the UK which takes you to questions about the length of time you have spent in the UK in the last year (if less than 183 days you fail the Statutory Residence Test)! Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

AliceG
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:28 pm

Re: Tax proof in the UK

Postby AliceG » Thu Feb 20, 2020 4:53 pm

bobscott wrote:
Kilkis wrote:This any good, Bob.

Warwick


It's OK until you get to the bit about why you think you are tax resident in the UK which takes you to questions about the length of time you have spent in the UK in the last year (if less than 183 days you fail the Statutory Residence Test)! Bob.


Following with interest as I will be in the UK for around 140 days only, what a ballacher all this tax malarkey is

GlennB
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Location: Arkadia, Peloponnese

Re: Tax proof in the UK

Postby GlennB » Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:25 pm

bobscott wrote:
Kilkis wrote:This any good, Bob.

Warwick


It's OK until you get to the bit about why you think you are tax resident in the UK which takes you to questions about the length of time you have spent in the UK in the last year (if less than 183 days you fail the Statutory Residence Test)! Bob.


Spanner in works time - this is one of the reasons I don't believe it's even legally possible to claim tax residency in the UK when you are, in fact, primarily resident in Greece. That some get away with it because their Greek accountant doesn't understand the regulations doesn't mean it's legal.

AliceG
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:28 pm

Re: Tax proof in the UK

Postby AliceG » Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:50 pm

GlennB wrote:
bobscott wrote:
Kilkis wrote:This any good, Bob.

Warwick


It's OK until you get to the bit about why you think you are tax resident in the UK which takes you to questions about the length of time you have spent in the UK in the last year (if less than 183 days you fail the Statutory Residence Test)! Bob.


Spanner in works time - this is one of the reasons I don't believe it's even legally possible to claim tax residency in the UK when you are, in fact, primarily resident in Greece. That some get away with it because their Greek accountant doesn't understand the regulations doesn't mean it's legal.


Does that mean paying double tax or you can claim tax exemption in U.K. and pay Greek tax?

Kilkis
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Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Tax proof in the UK

Postby Kilkis » Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:52 pm

I tend to agree with you Glenn, although I think some accountants know very well that it isn't strictly legal but do it anyway.

What Bob was asking about is a bit different. He has a pension that must remain taxable in the UK, under the terms of the DTA, even if he is tax resident in Greece so it doesn't really matter if he is registered as tax resident in the UK or in Greece as his income will be taxed in the UK anyway. What he is asking is, if he is forced to become tax resident in Greece, e.g. because of the new Third Country Biometric Residence Card, how can he get a form from HMRC to prove that his pension must remain liable for tax in the UK so that he is not taxed on it again in Greece. I've never had to do it that way round so I am not sure. I've always been tax resident here so I've had to do it the other way round, i.e. get forms from the Greek tax authority to prove I am declaring my UK income here and it is being assessed for tax here so that HMRC does not tax it in the UK.

Warwick

PS Yes Alice, you can be tax resident in Greece, declare UK income in Greece, be assessed for tax on it in Greece and get a Double Taxation Form from the Greek tax authority to give to HMRC and then HMRC should mark it as Non Taxable (NT) in the UK. While where you are tax resident mainly determines where you pay tax on any income the Double Taxation Agreement modifies that for certain incomes. It all depends on the type of income and what the DTA says about that type of income.
Last edited by Kilkis on Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AliceG
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:28 pm

Re: Tax proof in the UK

Postby AliceG » Thu Feb 20, 2020 5:53 pm

From digging around , I found this

f you work for a UK company, but spend more than 183 days in a tax year outside the UK, your company must apply for you to have a tax code of NT and not deduct any tax or NI. You remain on the UK company's pay roll but you must pay income tax to Greece according to their rules.

Keltz
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:53 am

Re: Tax proof in the UK

Postby Keltz » Thu Feb 20, 2020 6:48 pm

I am in the same position with legal Greek residency papers where I can apply for my blue residencey middle of next year yet am fully tax resident in the UK despite failing the residency tests on my annual tax return as HMRC tell me I am mostly resident in the UK despite only declairing 19 days visit the previous year.

The decision I think I need to make this year is to ask HMRC for UK tax residency confirmation in writing and accept that will fail for some of my income and result in it being taxed in Greece. This is the only way I think I will be covered by the WA where it states you have to be legally resident in your choosen EU country to qualify.

thebigbluecheese
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:54 am

Re: Tax proof in the UK

Postby thebigbluecheese » Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:40 pm

I phoned them , got the letter through a couple of days later ,


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