FULL Lockdown Monday 23 March 6a.m. in Greece

For discussion, news, comments, questions and information about Crete & Greece.
Maud
Posts: 706
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:46 pm
Location: S.W. England/ S.W. Crete.

Re: FULL Lockdown Monday 23 March 6a.m. in Greece

Postby Maud » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:51 am

I agree Tim.

I understand nobody likes to be told what to do. - It is human nature. The U.K. Government is wary to seeming too dictatorial, (it wants to be liked....as well as worrying about financial consequences of shutting more things down). It appeals daily to people’s ‘common sense’ and better nature. At times of crisis like this it is wonderful to see how so many people pull together and help each other, but you will never stop an element of society ignoring good advice and doing the ‘right thing.’ (In this case social distancing and even self isolation where needed).

We are stuck in the U.K. at the moment. We should have been on the ferry from Bari next week. I have been following closely the difference between how Greece and the U.K. are handling this crisis. Of course it is only my opinion, but I think Greece has got it right, whereas in the U.K. too many people are still ignoring ‘advice.’

I understand for some that being shut up at home is a problem, but using the ‘allowed out to shop for food’ instruction as a means be able to pop out to the shop every day is inexcusable. Actually, I think people are crazy. We do all of our food shopping on-line. I know it hasn’t been easy to get delivery slots, but lots of shoppers would still rather go and ‘pick’ their own stuff. - Fine in normal times, but surely in times of crisis we can all make a few sacrifices to keep people safe.

A friend went to her local supermarket yesterday to pick up some food for elderly neighbours. (She does her own on line, but her neighbours had run out of essentials and asked her to pop out for them. - They are 89 and 91.....so are in self isolation). When she arrived at the supermarket she had to queue for 20 minutes with her trolly in the car park before being allowed in the store. I refuse to believe that there would be such a huge demand on supermarkets if people only shopped when they actually needed shopping.

This weekend will be a ‘test’ again. Will people heed good advice and not visit beauty spots and the seaside in this good weather? I agree with Warwick’s analogy in an earlier post about buying from the fishmonger and the supermarket . People need to use common sense. In the U.K. we live in the middle of nowhere....a National Park. It is easy to walk in this area without meeting people. I have no objection to people from the local town driving the 10 miles it takes to walk up on the moor. They can then stay away from other people. I felt the Police were right however a week ago to stop people with a caravan traveling from the Midlands to Devon for a few days to get away from the virus. Locals from Cornwall to the Scottish Highlands have seen tourists arriving and buying up all the food in local shops.....as it has saved them queuing in town supermarkets! They have been swarming around small villages and trebling the population. To me that is not acceptable.

The trouble is that making instructions ‘advisable’ rather than ‘enforced’ leaves them open to personal interpretations. Not everyone acts responsibly in making those decisions. It is why I think Greece has got it right!

Kilkis
Posts: 11527
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: FULL Lockdown Monday 23 March 6a.m. in Greece

Postby Kilkis » Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:04 pm

Maud wrote:...as well as worrying about financial consequences of shutting more things down...


To be fair this is not something he can ignore. There is a balance to be struck. If he does too little too late then the NHS will be completely swanped by COVID-19 patients. They will not be able to provide treatment for all the other ills that befall people and people will die because of that in addition to the COVID-19 related deaths. On the other hand if the measures cause a complete collapse of the economy then that will also result in people dying. Little or no economic activity could result in the collapse of all private and occupational pension schemes and means little or no revenue so no hospitals, no doctors and nurses, no medecines, no State Pension, no out-of-work or in-work benefits etc. OK that is an extreme scenario but shrinking of the economy just means that you go part way towards that extreme. I have no idea where the best balance point is so I have no idea how far the measures should go. I don't think there is a win-win scenario, probably the best you can do is to aim for least worst. I think the UK has done too little too late but only time will tell.

I think the criticism of the UK response is the inconsistency. If companies are forced to close down, as they have been, you get the maximum economic hit but if people don't obey social distancing measures rigorously you don't get the benefit on the rate of spread side. That to me is lose-lose. While in every country there will always be those who obey and those who ignore, I suspect Greece has got the enforcement side more correct than the UK.

Warwick

Maud
Posts: 706
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:46 pm
Location: S.W. England/ S.W. Crete.

Re: FULL Lockdown Monday 23 March 6a.m. in Greece

Postby Maud » Sat Apr 04, 2020 3:59 pm

I certainly understand the concerns of the U.K. Government re the economic side of things Warwick, and nobody wants to see the economy ‘crippled’ but this is about timing! The U.K. had the advantage (if that is the correct word!), of seeing how Corvid 19 had got a hold in Italy, France and Spain. We all need to learn from the experiences of others. Schools in the IK should have shut down at least week earlier. - This was not done as we were told children don’t suffer with the infection as much as adults, and many workers could not get to their jobs if they had children at home.

When the Government was forced in to the situation of closing schools as the virus was spreading so quickly, (and children were seen a ‘super spreaders!), schools managed to stay open for the small number of children that needed to attend them. Pubs and restaurants were remaining open and continuing to be packed out with people for too long. This has now caused the virus to be spread more, and I fear ‘social distancing’ will last longer in the U.K. and therefore cause a greater economic hit than had these places closed earlier.

I am fed up with hearing about ‘models’ and Hancock’s latest ‘five pillars.’ There have been many many scientists that have been telling the Government, social distancing and isolation is the only way to stop this virus spreading until we get a vaccine. The U.K. Government intended to go for ‘herd immunity’ to begin with. - That way they would not have had to shut any businesses down. It is hard to have confidence in politicians who take that attitude towards human life!

Greece has got it right.

filippos
Posts: 5832
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:38 pm
Location: Kalyves
Contact:

Re: FULL Lockdown Monday 23 March 6a.m. in Greece

Postby filippos » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:55 pm

Jeffstclair wrote:I have deep admiration and respect for the Nurses Doctors and staff who work in health care ...
Hear, hear! Absolutely.

filippos
Posts: 5832
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:38 pm
Location: Kalyves
Contact:

Re: FULL Lockdown Monday 23 March 6a.m. in Greece

Postby filippos » Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:21 pm

Kilkis wrote:While in every country there will always be those who obey and those who ignore, I suspect Greece has got the enforcement side more correct than the UK. Warwick

There's a report in ekathimerini today (spotted by Margarita) about the numbers in Greece failing to follow the regulations. The report is here.

Up till April 3 the Greek state has collected a total of 4.25 million euros in fines. 17,358 fines of €150 for individuals and 330 fines for retail and catering businesses with fines of €5,000 each.

More details in the news report.

Kilkis
Posts: 11527
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: FULL Lockdown Monday 23 March 6a.m. in Greece

Postby Kilkis » Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:17 pm

To be fair the same report also says: "“It is significant that the majority of citizens have complied with the measures implemented to avoid and limit the spread of the coronavirus and for this, the Hellenic Police thanks them sincerely,” police spokeswoman Ioanna Rotziokou...

Don't misunderstand me, Maud, I also think the Greek government has got it a lot more right than the UK government but I also recognise that I am biassed. At 73, almost 74, I am very much in the at risk group. I will always want the government to do more, rather than less, because that helps to protect me. Equally I am prepared to do more than the government demands for the same reason.

The whole discussion about herd immunity is a total nonsense. Herd immunity is a concept associated with vaccination. There are always some people who cannot be vaccinated and, depending on the contagion rate, you need a certain percentage of the population to become immune so those people are not at significant risk. Vaccination achieves that level of immunity by injecting people with a vaccine that makes them immune without doing them harm. There is no vaccination yet for SARS-CoV-2. Achieving herd immunity by simply letting the whole population catch it and see who survives is not a viable policy. I am sure there are economists who can make a pure economic case that continuing as normal, letting everybody catch it and then let it run its course is the most cost effective solution and there are certainly some advisors in Downing Street who support that idea. Unfortunately, if one or two million people die, which is what Imperial College projected with a do nothing policy, every single one of those people who die is somebody's husband, wife, mother, father, grandmother, grandfather etc. Every person who loses a loved one is a potential voter at the next election so the economic argument is not a very good political argument. I think it took a while for that to dawn on the government in the UK.

Nobody knows how this will pan out but if it keeps following the current trajectory I think a lot of people in the UK are going to be asking, " Why didn't we do what South Korea did?"

Warwick

filippos
Posts: 5832
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:38 pm
Location: Kalyves
Contact:

Re: FULL Lockdown Monday 23 March 6a.m. in Greece

Postby filippos » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:25 pm

Kilkis wrote:To be fair the same report also says: “It is significant that the majority of citizens have complied... ...

This was good to see at the end of the report, too.
"Government officials have said that the bulk of this revenue will be spent on bolstering the public healthcare system."

bobscott
Posts: 2640
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:36 pm
Location: Kokkino Horio

Re: FULL Lockdown Monday 23 March 6a.m. in Greece

Postby bobscott » Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:03 pm

Warwick. You say towards the end of your post " I am sure there are economists who can make a pure economic case that continuing as normal, letting everybody catch it and then let it run its course is the most cost effective solution and there are certainly some advisors in Downing Street who support that idea."

All I can say is 'Saints preserve us. Thank God I failed my GCE O level in economics! Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Kamisiana
Posts: 348
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:06 pm

Re: FULL Lockdown Monday 23 March 6a.m. in Greece

Postby Kamisiana » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:16 pm

Ya cane make it up Nicola Sturgeon backs Scottish chief medical officer who breaks her own rules twice
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/183 ... les-twice/

And in her first full day in the job new Labour deputy leader Angela Rayner basically tells the public do what you want, not what the government advise you to do
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ncock.html

Lets all work together :roll:

Maud
Posts: 706
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:46 pm
Location: S.W. England/ S.W. Crete.

Re: FULL Lockdown Monday 23 March 6a.m. in Greece

Postby Maud » Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:01 pm

You are absolutely correct Kamisiana. Calderwood should lose her job. This is a classic case of
‘Do as I say, not as I do.’
Words are cheap....she can apologise as much as she wants, but it doesn’t change the fact that she disregarded her own advice,(twice!) - yet expected others to abide by it.

As for Rayner, I understand her comments about people in flats etc needing to exercise. I think the problem here has been the confusing advice from the Government. If we are only allowed out to exercise then sunbathing isn’t exercising. If we are allowed outdoors as long as we abide to social distancing, does it matter if people sit on the grass in a park for 20 minutes? I can’t get my head around that one! I am tempted to say exercising is good for the body, so it is fine to go out and do that. Some would argue that relaxing in the sun is good for the mind though, and just as beneficial.

The U.K. needs a Greek approach to this matter!

filippos
Posts: 5832
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:38 pm
Location: Kalyves
Contact:

Re: FULL Lockdown Monday 23 March 6a.m. in Greece

Postby filippos » Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:08 pm

She (Calderwood) insisted: "This was a mistake, human error, and there's no excuses." Oh so that's OK then. How on earth can anyone except a complete idiot travel, with her family, to her second home on consecutive weekends 'by mistake'. That's on a par with the thieving MPs involved in their expenses scandal who claimed, "It was merely a minor accounting error" or some similar feeble excuse.

She's right about one thing though; "there's no excuses."

P.S. Her grammar's pretty cr*p, too.

Maud
Posts: 706
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:46 pm
Location: S.W. England/ S.W. Crete.

Re: FULL Lockdown Monday 23 March 6a.m. in Greece

Postby Maud » Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:41 pm

Interestingly filippos she began by claiming she had ‘just gone to check on her holiday home, and shut it up, as she knew she wouldn’t be using it for a while.’ - Hmmmm.

Kilkis
Posts: 11527
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: FULL Lockdown Monday 23 March 6a.m. in Greece

Postby Kilkis » Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:53 pm

Kamisiana wrote:...And in her first full day in the job new Labour deputy leader Angela Rayner basically tells the public do what you want, not what the government advise you to do ...


I agree with the comment on Calderwood. If I am backing into my drive and I clip the gatepost then that is a mistake, a human error. If I load up my car, drive to my holiday home and spend the weekend there - twice then that is not a mistake or a human error it is simply a belief that I can get away with this because of who I am.

I cannot, however, see anything in Angela Raynor's comments that can be interpreted as "do what you want, not what the government advise you to do". I would count walking to the park, sitting down for a while until my back stopped aching and then walking back again as vigorous exercise. I am not up to 10 km runs. People synthesize vitamin D by being exposed to sunlight. Everybody needs vitamin D every day because the body cannot store it. The purpose of the rules are to socially distance. If people are being responsible and socially distancing then it doesn't matter how energetic or not they are being. If they are not socially distancing then jump on them. People are being told by the police that they are not allowed to drive to somewhere to take exercise. Matt Hancock in a press conference a day or so ago said that there is nothing in the rules to stop them doing that, it is allowed provided they keep apart from other people. When you view the drone footage recorded by the Derbyshire police of people walking on a country footpath they were typically well over 100 m apart. Matt Hancock specifically said that there was nothing wrong with that. If you look at the pictures of people in Southwark Park, Regents Park and Brighton Beech in the article people are very much socially distancing by massive amounts. If you look at the one of Clapham Common they are clearly not, they are gathering in a significant group. Jump on them and leave the others alone.

Warwick

bobscott
Posts: 2640
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:36 pm
Location: Kokkino Horio

Re: FULL Lockdown Monday 23 March 6a.m. in Greece

Postby bobscott » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:01 am

Kilkis wrote:
Kamisiana wrote:...And in her first full day in the job new Labour deputy leader Angela Rayner basically tells the public do what you want, not what the government advise you to do ...


I agree with the comment on Calderwood. If I am backing into my drive and I clip the gatepost then that is a mistake, a human error. If I load up my car, drive to my holiday home and spend the weekend there - twice then that is not a mistake or a human error it is simply a belief that I can get away with this because of who I am.

I cannot, however, see anything in Angela Raynor's comments that can be interpreted as "do what you want, not what the government advise you to do".

Warwick


Kamisiana's comment is typical of media bias (virus?) - attaches itself to people who want to (in the words of Francis Urquhart of House of Cards) 'put a bit of stick about'. Pretty worthless rubbish. Bob. 8)
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

chrissyg
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:46 pm

Re: FULL Lockdown Monday 23 March 6a.m. in Greece

Postby chrissyg » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:53 am

Totally agree with you Warwick. The press are out and about, which they shouldnt be anyway, searching for groups of people so they can put it in the papers, and they found very little. I too see nothing wrong in sitting on a park bench in an empty park soaking up the sun for a few minutes while on the daily walk. Yes, they managed to find a few people sitting down having a picnic , so what? There was no- one near them and they were from the same household and probably lived in a flat and wanted some sunshine. In the grand scheme of things, i feel all this policing is over the top and unnecessary. It is just adding to the anxiety that we are all feeling at our loss of freedom.


Return to “General Discussion & News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 23 guests