Coronavirus. All Change.

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Tim
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Coronavirus. All Change.

Postby Tim » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:18 pm

The VERY first thing we were told about coronavirus when it first reared its ugly head, was that it was NOT an airborne disease, was spread primarily by touching infected surfaces and was best combatted by scrupulous and regular handwashing and not touching the face.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... s-say.html

If this article in the Daily Mail is correct, the complete opposite is true. It IS an airborne disease, and rather than washing our hands whilst humming Happy Birthday to You, we should all have been wearing masks, pretty much all the time, from day one. Somewhat ironic, if true, as the research has come out of China.

It seems as if information from scientists is about as reliable as information from politicians.

Tim

shine on
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Re: Coronavirus. All Change.

Postby shine on » Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:24 pm

When the virus ‘first reared it’s ugly head’ I bought gloves and masks immediately, regardless to the incorrect information that masks will do nothing. It really is a case of look after yourself whenever possible, there’s too much corruption and incorrect advice from the governments and scientists.

Kilkis
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Re: Coronavirus. All Change.

Postby Kilkis » Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:33 pm

I agree with the main conclusion of the study, i.e. if everybody used masks it would reduce the spread, but not necessarily with the conclusion that viral particles in the air are more important than on surfaces. It is not surprising that if they take samples of victims breath it will have a high virus load but what happens then? Does that spread out to a great distance or does it quickly settle on surfaces? How much of the virus load is in droplets and how much in aerosol form.

It has always been known that the virus is expelled by coughing, sneezing, although sneezing is not a common symptom with COVID-19, speaking and even breathing. Mostly that is in droplets rather than aerosol form. As far as I can tell a virus cannot be carried by a molecule of oxygen or nitrogen? It is carried by moisture. Aerosols are simply much smaller droplets and so cannot carry as big a virus load as a larger droplet. The droplets quickly settle out of the air within a short distance of the person expelling them, hence the 2 m distancing rule. It's not a cliff. You are not in a cloud of droplets at 1.9 m and then in clear air at 2.1 m. The number of droplets decreases as you move away from the person expelling them so the risk of infection decreases. The figure of 2 m is seen as an acceptable level of risk. Aerosols will travel further in the air than larger droplets but they contain less virus. This is direct infection and is the highest risk for doctors and nurses treating COVID infected patients because they have to be close to them. It would also be a high risk for ordinary people in confined spaces but I don't think it is the highest risk for most people as long as they stay more than 2 m apart.

Obviously the droplets settle onto surfaces where they can live for some time depending on the type of surface, e.g. up to 72 hours on hard surfaces like metal or plastic. Other people then touch those surfaces and subsequently touch their face transferring the virus to a point where it can infect them. This is indirect infection and I think it is the highest risk for people who are not in close contact with COVID victims, hence the rule to not touch your face and wash your hands thoroughly and very frequently. It is an especially high risk in places like public transport where everybody is constantly touching the same surfaces, handrails, seats, buttons etc.

Wearing a simple face mask will not protect you very well from catching the virus by the direct route since the virus can get into your system through your eyes as well as your nose and mouth. You would need to wear the sort of mask that doctors and nurses in ICU wards use with a large visor or tightly fitting goggles. In fact wearing a simple face mask may increase your risk of direct infection because it makes you feel safe so you are more likely to ignore the distance rule and hence droplets are more likely to get onto you, your clothing and the mask itself. Unless you follow operating theatre procedures for putting on/taking off the mask you can then get contaminated. It may also increase your risk of indirect infection because you are likely to be touching it all the time and you can then transfer virus to your face from objects that you have touched where droplets have landed. In general unless used under medical conditions with adequate training a face mask is not very good for protecting you from infection from other people.

What a mask over your nose and mouth will do quite well is drastically reduce the amount of virus you are expelling into the air if you happen to be infected but don't realise you are. Therefore it is pretty good at protecting other people from you. Since we don't know who is infected and who isn't it requires everybody to wear a mask, especially where distancing is difficult. This is what people in the east understand, partly because they experienced outbreaks of SARS and MERS, and nobody in the west can seem to get their head round. If everybody wore a mask in all public indoor spaces the rate of infection would go down drastically. If only a few people wear them it will do very little. If you look at China, South Korea, Japan, Singapore, Taiwan etc virtually everybody is wearing a mask at all times. If you look at the UK and Greece virtually nobody is wearing them whatever the situation. Either the western governments are not communicating the message very well or we couldn't care less about protecting other people we are only interested in ourselves?

Warwick

Kamisiana
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Re: Coronavirus. All Change.

Postby Kamisiana » Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:46 pm

Good lord someone only posted a few weeks ago about having to breath clouds of secondhand e cigarette vapor/aerosol
https://www.citynews1130.com/2020/05/08 ... our-cloud/ :roll:

Tim
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Re: Coronavirus. All Change.

Postby Tim » Wed Jun 03, 2020 6:55 pm

If everybody wore a mask in all public indoor spaces the rate of infection would go down drastically. If only a few people wear them it will do very little.


My point (assuming the research quoted in the article is correct) is that because we were assured from the outset by politicians who were 'following the science', that the general population didn't need to wear masks because the infection (unless you were directly sneezed upon) could only be picked up from surfaces, the vast majority concentrated on hand cleanliness as opposed to wearing a mask. I wonder how many people have died as a result of this misinformation?

Tim

Kilkis
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Re: Coronavirus. All Change.

Postby Kilkis » Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:56 pm

Tim wrote:... the vast majority concentrated on hand cleanliness as opposed to wearing a mask. I wonder how many people have died as a result of this misinformation?

Tim


During lockdown it ought to be very few, since person to person contact was minimised. Now, as we exit lockdown, possibly quite a lot. The government, and the WHO, were terrified that people would start buying medical grade face masks in large numbers when it was impossible to get sufficient for medical staff, hence the advice. If you die they don't care but if large number of doctors and nurses die everybody has an increased risk of dying because they can't get treatment.

The Greek government has given very clear and specific advice on when to wear masks but from my observation people are mostly not following it. The word "Recommended" seems to be treated as "Don't bother" and in some cases, also the word "Mandatory"? I've not been on any public transport, in a lift or in any sort of medical establishment so I don't know what is happening there. I have been for a meal in a taverna and nobody on the staff was wearing masks or gloves. For it to work it has to be everybody or at least the vast majority. It's a bit like vaccination. While in that case it does protect you, the main advantage from a public health point of view is that you can't pass it on to someone else, which is why such a big percentage take up is needed.

Warwick

bobscott
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Re: Coronavirus. All Change.

Postby bobscott » Thu Jun 04, 2020 9:20 am

Kilkis wrote:
The Greek government has given very clear and specific advice on when to wear masks but from my observation people are mostly not following it. The word "Recommended" seems to be treated as "Don't bother" and in some cases, also the word "Mandatory"? I've not been on any public transport, in a lift or in any sort of medical establishment so I don't know what is happening there. I have been for a meal in a taverna and nobody on the staff was wearing masks or gloves. For it to work it has to be everybody or at least the vast majority. It's a bit like vaccination. While in that case it does protect you, the main advantage from a public health point of view is that you can't pass it on to someone else, which is why such a big percentage take up is needed.

Warwick


We have been into two local tavernas in the last few days. In the first, the tables were well spaced out, outside. None of the staff wore any kind of protective stuff like masks and gloves. Food was served up, as normal, with salt, pepper, oil and vinegar containers on the table. By contrast, in the second (yesterday evening) the staff wore no mask but wore gloves. The tables (spaced nicely) had a cloth cover on and nothing else. The waitress brought us small plates inside large paper bags which also contained cutlery wrapped separately in a paper serviette (or napkin if you prefer!). Condiments took the form of salt and pepper in individual sachets. No oil or vinegar appeared. Meal provided as normal, plated. There were some left-overs and we were each brought foil dishes and had to put what we wanted to take home in the containers ourselves (usual practice being to do all that stuff in the kitchen). The contrast between the two establishment was very marked, and although I guess one could pick holes in both, the second was far more careful of our welfare (and that of their staff) than the first. Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

GlennB
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Re: Coronavirus. All Change.

Postby GlennB » Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:18 am

I was interested to see that when I went to a major regional hospital (I'm on the mainland) the other day they were getting people to remove and dump their gloves at the entrance. I also had some tests at a cardiologist and it was the same story - masks all round but no gloves.


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