Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

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Kamisiana
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Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Kamisiana » Tue Oct 13, 2020 1:19 pm

Kilkis wrote:True. There are a few who post on here who were immigrants but went back where they came from so no longer are. I must admit I am not sure why they are still interested in a forum that was built to provide information for immigrants on the back of a web site that was built to provide information for immigrants on the back of a book that was written to provide information for immigrants.

Those of us who stay are all immigrants.

Warwick

That's true, but may be those of us that have lived in Crete for over 12 years and put not far short of 50000 euros into the Greek economy are more qualified to post on the forum than say those who merely visit/holiday or visit their holiday home for a few weeks a year, may be you could look into it.
But then again as I kept my UK driving license several UK bank accounts a a UK utility bill registered to a UK address along with staying registered with my GP you could say I was only pretending to live in Crete :wink:

bobscott
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Location: Kokkino Horio

Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby bobscott » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:45 pm

After 23 years of living here despite having UK bank accounts and without a UK residential address, we are undoubtedly immigrants. Sadly, after the frenzy and general misrepresentation of the truth in the run-up to BREXIT the word immigrant has acquired something of a pejorative sense - certainly in the UK. Never mind; who cares? Sticks and stones and all that!! Bob.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Kilkis
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Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Kilkis » Tue Oct 13, 2020 2:50 pm

I am not in anyway criticising people who go back and wish to post on the forum, Kamisiana. Who posts is none of my business but as far as I am concerned anybody and everybody is welcome from people who have never lived here and never intend to to those who live her permanently and everything in between. I pass no judgement on anybody. As always my post meant exactly what it said, i.e. "I am not sure why people who had gone back would want to post". It is good to know that, in your case, the reason is that you want to use your experience to help forum members with their queries.

Warwick

Yorgo
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Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Yorgo » Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:51 am

I consider it arrogant for one to assume they are the font of all knowledge because they live, reside in Crete as compared to those who stay temporarily. Is it that people who live in Crete (immigrants) are an authority on Corona Virus/Covid 19? All you need to know is how virus operate and link that to what the/a government is making us do by control of free movement and the damage thereof. Overall, I think this recently elect Prime Minister of Greece has probably managed to Corona crisis better than any leader of any country - although I side with Mr Trump wanting to "open-up" the USA.
Can someone explain why 6 at a Taverna Table is safe and 7 or more is not??

Joan
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Location: Sussex and Crete

Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Joan » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:29 am

"Can someone explain why 6 at a Taverna Table is safe and 7 or more is not??"

Actually probably even 6 is not "safe", but it's a reasonable compromise. Same as for lots of rules. There has to be a cut-off point to stop large groups. If they had said 8 was permitted, people would ask why 9 or more was not...

Joan

bobscott
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Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby bobscott » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:53 am

Joan wrote:"Can someone explain why 6 at a Taverna Table is safe and 7 or more is not??"

Actually probably even 6 is not "safe", but it's a reasonable compromise. Same as for lots of rules. There has to be a cut-off point to stop large groups. If they had said 8 was permitted, people would ask why 9 or more was not...

Joan

Exactly Joan. Just like the other day it rained hard in Almyrida and hardly a drop fell in Kokkino Horio. The rain has to stop somewhere! Bob
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!

Kilkis
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Location: Near Chania

Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Kilkis » Wed Oct 14, 2020 10:33 am

The only way to be safe is to stay at home and not meet a single other person ever. Everything else is a matter of managing risk.

    Wearing a mask does not guarantee you won't catch COVID-19 but, if everyone does it, it reduces the risk because those who have it trap a lot of the virus they expel in the mask.
    Staying 2 m apart does not guarantee you won't catch the virus but the further you are away from other people the lower the risk. If you want to have a rule you need to specify a distance that defines when you are/aren't breaking the rule.
    Having 6 at a table does not guarantee you won't catch COVID-19. Sitting together at a table automatically tends to put people closer together. You can't really wear a mask when you are eating and drinking and you are all tending to touch the same things so the risk is higher in that situation. The more people you mingle closely with the higher the risk. Again if you want to have a rule you need to specify a number that defines when you are/aren't breaking the rule.
    Whatever you do the risk is higher where the infection rate is higher so you put in tightest restrictions where the infection rate is highest. For example you allow 6 to a table if the infection rate is low, drop that to 4 as the infection rate rises and then close tavernas etc altogether if it goes higher still.

The Greek prime minister did very well in the early phase of the virus where movement restrictions were about the only thing he could do to get the virus under control. He used them very well. He chose what to use very carefully, applied them effectively in a timely manner with the result that the peak was low and after the peak the infection rate fell rapidly. Copy book.

You can only use movement restrictions for a limited time, however, otherwise you collapse the economy. You have to use that time to put in place an effective test-trace-isolate system that can control the spread of the virus without movement restrictions. You use the movement restrictions until you have the daily infection rate down to a level that test-trace-isolate can deal with. You then slowly release the movement restrictions in stages checking at each stage that test-trace-isolate is coping. He tried to do that but the test-trace-isolate system was not effective. Which part(s) of that system failed I have no idea but it did fail. It's only purpose is to suppress the infection rate and eventually bring it to zero. If the infection rte is rising the system has failed.

Everybody wants to open up the economy. Many countries have done so very effectively or never really closed it down. They did so by having an effective test-trace-isolate system. It can work, those countries are living proof. Trump just wants to open up the economy full stop. He does not care how many people die as long as the Dow keeps going up. That's about the only thing he can claim to have done and that isn't really anything to do with him. As long as the Fed keeps printing trillions of dollars and using them to buy assets the Dow will go up.

Warwick

Yorgo
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Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Yorgo » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:08 am

Americans have a totally different view on life than most other countries, on the whole. They seriously value their constitutional rights - freedom of movement and free speech uppermost. It is an innate, inalienable right to have freedom of movement. It is an aspect of their culture. They will tell a cop and a politician to "get fuffed" where as the British will tip the forelock and obey corrupt, lying, two-faced politicians who this past week have proudly announced their joy on getting a huge pay rise at the same time as asserting the new pension retirement/entitlement age.
I am still waiting for someone to explain why it is OK to gather en-mass in whetherspoons before 10 pm and not safe after 10 pm. Why I cant visit my next door neighbour but the BLM can march on central London watched by the police. I also do not know of and know no one who knows anyone who has had COVID19 (84). For me this is the exact empirical proof, arguing a pandemic does not exist.

Kilkis
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Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Kilkis » Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:33 am

How's this for mixed messaging, my highlighting in red?

    Para 1: Wearing a face mask is now mandatory in all enclosed places of work and open-air public areas where there is crowding
    Para 2: Wearing mask outdoors in crowding situation was “strongly recommended.

Warwick

Maud
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Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Maud » Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:02 pm

My goodness Yiorgo, are you saying you don’t believe Corvid 19 exists? I am not sure what you are stating from your last post.

Firstly, your previous comments, (made twice) about not being able to see and speak to your neighbour.......

Even in tier three people can meet up in a park in groups of 6 or less. If you are in tier one there is no reason why you cannot visit your neighbour in their home. If you are in tier two you could visit them in your or their garden. - Your statements aren’t totally incorrect. As for your neighbour wanting to see her/his grandchildren.....the same applies. Actually, if they had formed a support bubble with their children/grandchildren, they could still see them indoors......regardless of what tier they were in!

Secondly, Immigrants who cross the Channel from France are not put up in 4 *** hotels. - You have been listening to too much ‘B’ propaganda! I am not sure when you last visited Calais, or saw the attempts by the French Police to stop people trying to cross the Channel in boats/lorries etc, but two weeks ago we were returning to the U.K. via the Channel Tunnel and saw the French Police patrolling the motorway on foot to stop immigrants boarding lorries that were accessing the port. They were also patrolling the beaches. - I am fed up with all this ‘rubbish’ being spewed by people who know nothing about such matters......apart from what they read in the right wing press!

Finally, I know two people who have suffered from Covid, yet in the U.K. my home is in one of the lowest Covid areas in the country. Both are doctors....husband and wife......and picked it up through their work. I am disgusted to think that some people think this is all a hoax!

There is no hope for humanity whilst some idiots think this is all a conspiracy theory. - This is not helped by the ‘leader of the Western World’ acting irresponsibly in the hope of getting himself re-elected.

The one thing we agree on Yiorgo is the ridiculous idea that the virus ‘goes to sleep’ in the U.K. until 2200h and then wakes up to infect people in pubs! I sometimes wonder if Johnson has not been spending too much time with Trump?! - Maybe Trump’s illogical approach to the virus is ‘rubbing off’ on Johnson? Though, in fairness, I think Johnson would do more to contain the virus in the U.K. if he didn’t have a load of rebellious back-benchers, whose only thoughts are based on financial matters......mainly their own losses should the economy collapse.....putting pressure on him to let the virus spread.

Kilkis
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Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Kilkis » Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:28 pm

I don't know if anybody else has noticed but in the UK test-trace-isolate is now only referred to as test and trace by everybody in parliament and/or in a position of authority. I have felt for some time that the really weak link in the system was the self isolate part. The government received a report back in June that a small research project had revealed that, while 70 % of people who tested positive or were contacted by tracers said they intended to isolate, only about 20 % actually did, less in the case of contacts of someone who tested positive. It doesn't matter how many tests are performed, and it's currently not enough, or what proportion of contacts are traced, and that is worse, if the vast majority don't self isolate then it is a complete waste of time.

Nobody in government will talk about it, they just quote the figure who have been told to self isolate and treat it as though they all are. Nobody in opposition seems to be asking questions about it. Apart from on Question Time last week, no interviewers seem to be pushing this issue yet it is vital to controlling the numbers. Effectively the government is controlling the virus by movement restrictions and nothing else. Testing is simply informing them where infection rates are highest and hence where to apply the tightest controls.

I don't know if anybody who is following Greek news more closely than I do, e.g. watching debates on Greek TV, could comment if the same thing is happening in Greece. It feels like it.

The one thing that is correct in the Great Barrington Declaration is that if governments only use movement restrictions to slow the spread of the virus it will eventually spread through the whole population and all those liable to die from it probably will. In the absence of an effective and widely available vaccine, test-trace-isolate is the only way to completely suppress the virus and prevent deaths. Movement restrictions are only a tool to reduce the rate of infection so test-trace-isolate can cope.

Warwick

Tim
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Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Tim » Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:57 pm

Kilkis wrote:
The one thing that is correct in the Great Barrington Declaration is that if governments only use movement restrictions to slow the spread of the virus it will eventually spread through the whole population and all those liable to die from it probably will. In the absence of an effective and widely available vaccine, test-trace-isolate is the only way to completely suppress the virus and prevent deaths. Movement restrictions are only a tool to reduce the rate of infection so test-trace-isolate can cope.

Warwick


I think that may well be the (unstated) plan. I don't know if they do an age/underlying condition breakdown of covid deaths in the UK, but they do in Greece. This is from this morning's KTG, but is fairly typical:

Seven more deaths in the last 24 hours increased death toll to 469. Of the deceased 179 were women. The average age of the deceased was 79 and 96.5% of the deceased had an underlying condition or/and was over 70 years old.

If the UK's figures are comparable, the government may well feel that letting the virus spread and do its worst is a price worth paying to prevent the economy tanking. They're unlikely to ever say that out loud, though.

Tim

Jeffstclair
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Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Jeffstclair » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:16 pm

Yorgo wrote: I also do not know of and know no one who knows anyone who has had COVID19 (84). For me this is the exact empirical proof, arguing a pandemic does not exist.



Well my son in law has it ...he caught it while he was in hospital for an unrelated problem ....he has not seen his 5 year old sons face to face for four months.. The boys speak to him on face time , my daughter visits as often as she is allowed but she can't touch him at all .... it's tragic ...

Maud
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Location: S.W. England/ S.W. Crete.

Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Maud » Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:18 pm

Well.....Kriti is now off the U.K. ‘naughty step’, so over half term everyone from Tier 3 in the U.K. will be flying out to share their Corvid 19 with the Greeks! - Seeing as people are not self isolating when they should do, this will happen!

I have seen the question asked in the U.K. on a number of occasions about people not self isolating when they should do Warwick. Kier Starmer took Boris Johnson ‘to task‘ about it a couple of weeks ago in Prime Ministers Questions. The Government always gives the same response.....which is that ‘people should do the right thing!’ Hmmm.....

Kilkis
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Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Kilkis » Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:20 pm

Yes, I have seen very generalised questions asked but no real forensic questioning. For example pick a random day about 2 weeks ago:

    1 How many people tested positive on that day and were told to self isolate?
    2 How many of those were checked to see if they were self isolating?
    3 How were they checked? By phone or in person?
    4 Who checked them? Police, contact tracers, public health inspectors etc?
    5 How many times were they checked during their period of isolation?
    6 How many people were prosecuted for not self isolating?
    7 How many contacts of those tested positive were traced and told to self isolate?
    8 Repeat questions 2 to 6 for this group.
    9 Repeat questions 1 to 7 for all secondary contacts.
    10 And so on.

I presume, probably wrongly judging by the .csv fiasco, that all data relating to test-trace-isolate is stored in a scalable, relational database management system. If so it would take a competent programmer a day or so to construct a query table that answered these questions. That query table could then be run every day. The data could be exported to some sort of data analysis tool like Excel. Graphs could then be used to present the data in an easily intelligible form. Excel is a brilliant tool for analysing data but totally useless for collecting large scale data.

Even neglecting the data itself I would expect the whole test-trace-isolate system to operate under some form of Quality Management System, preferably TQM. That would mean that there would be written procedures telling everybody working in the system exactly what they had to do and how they had to do it. It would be perfectly simple to get an organisation like BSI to audit that Quality Management System to establish it it was fit for purpose. Is there a Quality Management System with written procedures? Has it been independently audited to establish if it is fit for purpose? Has its operation been audited to establish if the procedures have been followed? When I was running a test laboratory it was required to have an audited Quality Management System and if we got it wrong nobody would die. If test-trace-isolate gets it wrong tens of thousands could die.

Warwick


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