Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

For discussion, news, comments, questions and information about Crete & Greece.
Maud
Posts: 778
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:46 pm
Location: S.W. England/ S.W. Crete.

Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Maud » Thu Oct 15, 2020 11:30 pm

There is now a question about the safety and correct procedures being carried out at a lab In Milton Keynes where testing is taking place. - Things are getting worse. It seems that even if ‘test and trace‘ takes place, the actual testing in the labs is not being carried out properly.

On top of that, yesterday ‘used tests’ were distributed in Birmingham, and in a few cases they were used twice before the problem was identified.

People complain about Greece being inefficient. - You could not make up what is happening in the U.K. just now!

Kilkis
Posts: 12192
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Kilkis » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:18 am

In any form of addiction the first step for an addict to get cured of their addiction is to admit they are an addict. I only gave up smoking when I admitted to myself that the only reason I smoked was because I was addicted to nicotine.

It is the same with test-trace-isolate. The government will never even begin to fix the system until they admit that it is failing. At the moment they are not willing to take that first step. Until they do everybody will pay for their addiction.

Warwick

Maud
Posts: 778
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:46 pm
Location: S.W. England/ S.W. Crete.

Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Maud » Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:27 am

So true.

Human nature is such that people do not want to admit responsibility for the mistakes they have made. The stronger, more emotionally developed people, find it easier to cope with such a situation and have the confidence to own up to errors. -The weak struggle and seldom get there. The U.K. has a weak Government, which is not equip to deal with Covid 19.

I cannot see things improving until changes are made, track and trace is up and running properly, and sensible procedures are put in place. All the experienced politicians were taken out of Government by BJ to enable him to instal his cronies. Now there is a crisis they cannot deal with it. A ridiculous amount of money has been spent since March on consultants to ‘sort out’ what to do about Covid 19, - the larger part of it since September. Some consultants have been paid over £6,000 a day to ‘fix’ track and trace......and it is still working worse than ever!

It is easy to govern when all is going well. It is when there is a crisis that ‘true colours’ are shown. I know the virus is getting a grip all over Europe again but it will be very interesting to see which governments deal with it the best. - So far the Greek’s have done well. Let’s hope it remains so.

Kilkis
Posts: 12192
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Kilkis » Fri Oct 16, 2020 12:20 pm

I worked as a consultant in a large consultancy company for about 18 months. The standard consultant's joke went thus:

There were three city types, a surgeon, a lawyer and a consultant, having an after work drink in a pub one Friday evening. Their three dogs were curled up together by the fire. The surgeon said that he had the most brilliant dog in the world that knew every surgical procedure developed in the last decades. His companions cast doubt on this claim so he whistled his dog over, put a typewriter on the floor and sat his dog in front of it. The dog began to type and page after page of detailed surgical notes appeared until the surgeon told the dog he could stop. The lawyer then said that was nothing and his dog knew every legal precedent that had been set in the last 50 years. His companions cast doubt on his claim so he whistled his dog over, sat it in front of the typewriter and page after page of highly complex legal judgements started to appear until he told the dog to stop. They both looked at the consultant who didn't seem very impressed. After a pause he whistled his dog over, sat it in front of the typewriter and said "The usual". His dog typed a half page executive summary, a half page conclusion and an invoice for £50,000. He then gathered together all the pages typed by the other two dogs, put the conclusion on the back, the executive summary on the front and attached the invoice to the pile. He then cocked his leg against a chair and went back to sleep by the fire.

Not the most hilarious joke in the world but it tells you everything you need to know about consultants. The standard technique is to find out what you really think, write a report confirming that what you think is correct and charge a huge amount of money for doing it.

Warwick

Maud
Posts: 778
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:46 pm
Location: S.W. England/ S.W. Crete.

Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Maud » Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:06 pm

Love it!

Yorgo
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat May 05, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Yorgo » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:54 am

We need leadership. Thatcher had leadership qualities as of course did Churchill, Montgomery, Roosevelt, JFK, even Hitler though of course perverse and a nut-job. Brian Clough, Gaddafi, Castro and others. Its not whether you like a leader, because a good leader will deal equally with tough decisions as he/she does with the easy stuff. Take it to the manager level: Managers like to take credit and praise staff and to be liked. But a true leader will dish out rollickings, discipline bad staff as well as take the plaudits and pat staff on the back.
UK politicians and the mundane, pathetic people elected "in charge" - T May - Major - Johnson et al. - apply that old and tested British style via overuse of semantics and never, ever talk straight using clear language. "We/I will ensure the NHS functions for ALL our people" is semantics for - "I will sack thousands of nurses and cut back on financial input". He/she has not lied but by omission they do not tell the truth. The British elite politicians are trained in this way and they are almost psychotic in its application.
The reason Mr Trump won in 2016 was because the American people appreciated his straight talking. Ref Clinton: "your going to jail" - is exactly what people want and know about Clinton. Jeb Bush would say: "the Democrat administration were not honest with the great American people"?? Err, really??? Who cares?
The fact is, in my opinion, the lockdown approach and the duplicitous, ambiguous policies enforced by that pretend clown Johnson, backed by wooden-top Starmer, is a matter of the cure being worse than the disease. People are dying, via suicide, mental health breakdowns, illness from loss of businesses - jobs - unable to pay mortgage - rent, no hope, no motivation and much more.
We live in an era when the internet and smartphones are the new i D card and much more. This has been manipulated by governments as a means of control on the back of a so-called "killer virus pandemic". Sadly we also have a generation of 30/40 year olds who are not strong with a backbone. They will not challenge authority. They dont give a shite and will obey like sheep to the sheep dip. I asked some: What do you think to the MPs getting a nice big pay rise while you can not work and can not visit your mum and dad? They say: "MPs are entitled to a decent wage, whats the problem"?? Not one gets it. Not one weighs up the void/division, hypocrisy. In short, they accept anything and everything a corrupt careerist politicians will dish out.

Kilkis
Posts: 12192
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Kilkis » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:14 pm

You don't seem to get it, Yorgo. The NHS is not an infinite resource. It has very clear limits. It treats people who are ill, whatever they are ill with. It can cope with a certain number of admissions per day, whatever those admissions are due to. Once you pass that limit people will not get treated and some will die because of that lack of treatment. It is vital to keep the number of admissions below that limit. The country as a whole is not at that limit but some areas are extremely close to it and hospitals are warning that if the infections keep rising at the current rate they will hit their limit in about 2 weeks. Whatever you do today at least 2 weeks of rises are already baked into the current figures.

The current death rate COVID-19, relative to the number of infections, is lower than it was back in April for two main reasons:

    1 It is spreading fastest amongst the young while in April it was spreading fastest or as fast amongst the old. A smaller proportion of the young die. If left unchecked it will move from the young to the old and the death rate will rise. The old cannot totally isolate themselves from the young.
    2 Doctors are getting better at treating the virus. There isn't a cure yet but things like Dexamethasone reduce the death rate amongst advanced cases and doctors are learning better ways to administer oxygen with better timing.

The important thing about item 2 is that it requires patients to be admitted to hospital to be treated. The ones who survive because of Dexamethasone and/or better oxygenation treatment will die if they don't get it. If you reach the limit of NHS capacity you either admit more COVID-19 patients and are unable to admit cancer/heart attack/stroke patients so they die. If you admit the cancer/heart attack/stroke patients you can't admit the COVID-19 patients so they die. The argument about who dies is immaterial. If you allow NHS capacity to be reached someone is going to die. I don''t know of any short term method of reducing the number of patients who need hospital treatment because of cancer/heart attack/stroke etc so all you can do to prevent people dying is to reduce the number with COVID-19. You can do that with test-trace-isolate with very little economic cost. Many countries have done so successfully. Sadly most western governments seem incapable of doing so.

You seem to imply from your post, e.g. that 30/40 year olds have no backbone and everybody is just being manipulated by the government, that everybody should just ignore all government restrictions and go about their normal life. It is an option but it is one that will result in more deaths.

Warwick

Yorgo
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat May 05, 2018 10:16 pm

Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Yorgo » Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:40 pm

I do get it. I just do not see it as you do. How about YOU don't seem to get it?? It is either a Killer virus pandemic or it is not. It is ridiculous for Rethymnon to be operating to a totally less stringent control policy as Heraklion and Chania. Now if you want to say it is NOT a Pandemic killer virus then OK. Best you inform that clown Johnson and the rest of the politicians.
The policies, in my opinion, are NOT logical if the intent is to control a "killer virus pandemic" which we are told it is. Then if it is not why are many thousands of businesses closing down with suicide rates up as a result along with all the stress related illnesses people get when they are told they will not work again nor see their direct kinfolk. While BLM - Antifa - Football league - et al. carry on, apparently they are not deemed a threat.
I know guns can kill people as can diving in freezing cold water - we have LAWS on use of guns. We receive advice re jumping in cold rivers. I have to operate a gun judged upon my intent or recklessness (negligence) but the laws are clear and rigid. Most people do not even know what is a law, what is a rule, what is a policy or what is advice, in regard to Covid 19? Guns are OK in Cambridge but not OK in Nottingham?? Its the same principle applied ref COVID 19.

Maud
Posts: 778
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:46 pm
Location: S.W. England/ S.W. Crete.

Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Maud » Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:00 pm

You clearly have not met my son and daughter Yorgo. - To even contemplate they would be manipulated by the Government, or that they have no backbone, is laughable. - The same goes for their friends. They are all educated, strong willed, politically informed people, and would certainly stand up for their own opinions and values.

Once again you are making sweeping statements (like your one that all migrants are put up in 4* hotels, and nobody is doing anything to prevent them entering the U.K.), and as such you are not doing anything to encourage people to believe what you write in your posts.

Kilkis
Posts: 12192
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Kilkis » Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:06 pm

Stop going off on so many tangents, Yorgo. I haven't got the foggiest idea what you think or what you don't think. Simple facts:

    1 Yes, the disease COVID-19 is caused by a virus, specifically SARS-CoV-2. Anybody who says it is not is an idiot, i.e. IQ between 0 and 10.
    2 Yes it is a pandemic. It is infectious and it is spreading worldwide. That is what a pandemic is.
    3 Yes it is killing people. The exact absolute case fatality rate is not known because some people are asymptomatic and are not detected.
    4 The case fatality rate increases with increasing age and is very significant in the oldest age group.
    5 Despite some uncertainty in the case fatality rate it is known to be much higher than seasonal flu.

I have already said what the strategy should be:

    1 Reduce the infection rate to zero and hold it there through test-trace-isolate. You might need some restrictions on people mingling freely but they ought to be minimal, i.e. highest risk environments.
    2 If you don't have the capacity to achieve item 1 use broad restrictions on people mingling with other people in order to reduce the infection rate so that it is within your capacity. Increasing your capacity is very useful but once the infection rate exceeds your capacity you will never increase your capacity fast enough to catch up. Only movement restrictions will work.
    3 If you have to adopt Item 2 the restrictions should aim to stop the increase in infection rate and reduce it as fast as possible. That means you need to impose drastic restrictions and impose them very rapidly.

The UK tried to use Item 1 at the very beginning and failed. They did not increase the capacity fast enough to stay ahead of the virus. Other countries like Taiwan and South Korea did succeed and had much lower deaths as a result.

The UK then applied Item 2 and failed again. They were too slow to respond, the measures were not rigorous enough and enforcement was poor. That resulted in a very high peak, a very slow fall and a very large number of deaths. New Zealand applied Item 2 very successfully and had a very low peak, a very fast fall and very few deaths. Greece also applied Item 2 quite well with similar results to New Zealand but not quite as good.

The UK then increased its test and trace regime as it should. Unfortunately it overestimated the capacity of the regime and started to remove restrictive measures before the infection rate was within the capacity. More importantly it never really got a handle on the isolate part. It relied entirely on everybody complying with virtually no checks and no enforcement. Greece certainly got the infection rate down to a very low level but it didn't do much better than the UK at test-trace-isolate. Like the UK the fastest rate of spread was amongst the young but unlike the UK there is far more mingling between young and old in household environments, i.e. multi-generational families, so the death rate relative to infection rate is higher in Greece. Greece's deaths relative to detected infections is over double that in the UK. On the other hand the UK has 5 times the number of detected cases per million population over the whole pandemic than Greece although, to be fair, it has carried out almost 3 times as many test per million population.

So I have laid out the known facts and I have said what I think the strategy should be and where it has gone wrong. I have been saying the same thing for months. What would you do?

Warwick

PS If you want an analogy I see the whole sequence as a number of people in a canoe going down the Niagara river arguing about at which point they should turn round and paddle back. Having never reached an agreement I see them now in mid air about halfway down the falls still arguing about when they should start paddling back. I think we all know the outcome.

PPS I also think that I hear the fluttering of the wings of a black swan.

Keltz
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:53 am

Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Keltz » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:48 pm

The butterfly effect.

Yorgo, you should maybe read this as you seem caught up in the never ending cycle of chaos the UK government is creating. You might then realise that BJ via DC knows exactly what they are doing.

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/ ... d-fascism/

The veil of democracy and accountability at Westminster is slipping as the centuries old policy of rewarding those who do the work of the British Establishment and punishing those who act against the interests of the British Establishment.

Have a look at the BMJ to see what they think of the £10 billion...yes billions of our taxes spent on Track and Trace contracts given to friends of the Conservative and Unionist party.

No wonder authoritarian rule that follows chaos is being pursued relentlessly even after the failure to prorogue parliament.

Kilkis
Posts: 12192
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:58 pm
Location: Near Chania

Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Kilkis » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:55 pm

Even the BMJ are only talking about test and trace. When will somebody in a position of authority at least acknowledge the existence of the elephant in the room?

    I S O L A T E

Warwick

Tim
Posts: 618
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:41 pm
Location: Near Sitia
Contact:

Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Tim » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:58 pm

Keltz wrote:The butterfly effect.

Yorgo, you should maybe read this as you seem caught up in the never ending cycle of chaos the UK government is creating. You might then realise that BJ via DC knows exactly what they are doing.

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/ ... d-fascism/

The veil of democracy and accountability at Westminster is slipping as the centuries old policy of rewarding those who do the work of the British Establishment and punishing those who act against the interests of the British Establishment.

Have a look at the BMJ to see what they think of the £10 billion...yes billions of our taxes spent on Track and Trace contracts given to friends of the Conservative and Unionist party.

No wonder authoritarian rule that follows chaos is being pursued relentlessly even after the failure to prorogue parliament.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic ... Foundation

Really, Keltz? Talk about trawling the lower reaches of the internet to find some evidence to support a position.

Tim

Kamisiana
Posts: 452
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:06 pm

Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Kamisiana » Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:04 pm

Keltz wrote:The butterfly effect.

Yorgo, you should maybe read this as you seem caught up in the never ending cycle of chaos the UK government is creating. You might then realise that BJ via DC knows exactly what they are doing.

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/ ... d-fascism/

The veil of democracy and accountability at Westminster is slipping as the centuries old policy of rewarding those who do the work of the British Establishment and punishing those who act against the interests of the British Establishment.

Have a look at the BMJ to see what they think of the £10 billion...yes billions of our taxes spent on Track and Trace contracts given to friends of the Conservative and Unionist party.

No wonder authoritarian rule that follows chaos is being pursued relentlessly even after the failure to prorogue parliament.


Oops you seem to have backed the wrong horse there :lol:
https://thebulletin.org/2020/10/how-rus ... opolitics/

Keltz
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:53 am

Re: Level 1 for Chania. Level 3 Herakleion New guidelines

Postby Keltz » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:14 am

Oops! I've been found out! I'm a Russian infiltrator.


Return to “General Discussion & News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 45 guests

cron