Withdrawal agreement and residence

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FlatEric
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Withdrawal agreement and residence

Postby FlatEric » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:42 am

Hi All. I hope you are all keeping well and safe. I came across the statement below regarding the withdrawal agreement and how it impacts UK citizens who had residence status prior to January 1st 2021. It seems to infer that previously proven residence status (blue permit?) automatically guarantees residence post brexit.

Interesting post by the admin of British in Portugal, who contacted the Europe Direct Contact Centre (didn't know of its existence!) on holding two statuses. Portugal is a declaratory country like Greece, so the same holds for us.

'"Thank you for contacting the Europe Direct Contact Centre.
In Member States which opted for declaratory schemes, United Kingdom nationals and their family members who fulfilled the conditions for residence obtained their new residence status in the host State on 1 January 2021 automatically, by operation of law.
The host EU state may still require, as an administrative formality, that United Kingdom nationals and their family members register with national authorities or apply for a new residence document so they can certify existence of their new residence status under the Withdrawal Agreement.
Unlike the rules applicable to EU citizens in the UK and to United Kingdom nationals living in a host EU state with a constitutive scheme, United Kingdom nationals living in a host EU state with a declaratory scheme cannot lose their rights under the Withdrawal Agreement if they fail to register with national authorities or to apply for a new residence document. The penalty for not registering/applying in time is a financial sanction, at worst. It cannot lead to a loss of rights under the Withdrawal Agreement.
Declaratory schemes operate according to national laws. As such, we recommend that you contact the Portuguese authorities with any questions about the residence documents they issue: https://imigrante.sef.pt/en/solicitar/

Applying for Residence in Portugal – The Official Website of Portuguese Immigration - Portal Serviço de Estrangeiros e Fronteiras
general regime l startup visa l investment l family reunification l others. employed l self-employed l highly qualified l transferred workers
imigrante.sef.pt


The Withdrawal Agreement does not prohibit UK nationals and their family members from holding additional statuses under other instruments of EU or national law at the same time, provided they meet the conditions attached to these statuses.
A dual EU/UK national who is a Withdrawal Agreement beneficiary, can therefore also be a mobile EU citizen exercising free movement rights in the host State.

*In order to be able to evidence dual status (Withdrawal Agreement beneficiary and EU citizen exercising free movement rights), we suggest that citizens apply for both a document certifying permanent residence under the Free Movement Directive and for a new residence document to be issued under Article 18(4) of the Withdrawal Agreement.*

For the sake of completeness, please be informed that both under EU free movement law and under the Withdrawal Agreement the right of permanent residence is had automatically after having legally resided for a continuous period of five years in the host Member State.
However, the right of permanent residence provided for in the Withdrawal Agreement is more beneficial compared to the right of permanent residence under EU free movement law in that Article 15(3) of the Withdrawal Agreement provides that the right of permanent residence is lost only through absence from the host State for a period exceeding five consecutive years.
This goes beyond the allowed two-year absence for loss of the right of permanent residence under Article 16(3) of the Free Movement Directive. Therefore, Withdrawal Agreement beneficiaries can remain absent for a longer amount of time than EU citizens exercising their free movement rights, before losing their residence status. This is because once lost, the status of Withdrawal Agreement beneficiary cannot be recovered. In contrast, an EU citizen can always start a new period of legal residence in the host State, be it with a non-permanent residence right.

We hope you find this information useful. Please contact us again if you have other questions about the European Union, its activities or institutions."

I’ve come across several instances of folk going to their police stations to register for their biometric permit being asked for a wide variety of ‘evidence’ of residence based on what the particular official feels is required. The above statement seems quite clear to me but I am not well versed in EU legislation around this topic.

Does anyone with more experience regarding this issue have an opinion on the validity of this.

Best wishes to all and sorry for the long post.

STUART

Tim
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Re: Withdrawal agreement and residence

Postby Tim » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:00 am

I'm not sure I properly understand the thrust of your question, Stuart. If you go to a police station in Greece to apply for a Biometric ID, you will produce whatever they ask you for, or you won't get what you want. But that's always been the case with Greek bureaucracy and I'm sure always will be. For info, there are a dozen or so threads relating to Biometric ID application in the Brexit and Living in Greece section of the forum. It's actually been a far less fraught process than I expected it to be. Good Luck!

Tim

FlatEric
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Re: Withdrawal agreement and residence

Postby FlatEric » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:23 am

Hi Tim. I totally agree with your point regarding ‘give me what I ask for not what is required’. Haven’t got round to my permit meeting yet but I don’t foresee any issues. However, I’ve come across a few instances of people being asked for documents they can’t possibly supply i.e. a rental agreement when they are guests of a home owner. So, I guess my question is, if someone with a blue permit comes up against this situation when they seem to be ‘entitled’ to residency then what if any is their alternative course of action/approach.

Stuart

Tim
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Re: Withdrawal agreement and residence

Postby Tim » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:54 am

It's a very good question, Stuart. I could foresee it happening where a couple live together, unmarried, and the house isn't in joint names. I guess in that particular situation, one partner would have to become a legal tenant with a proper rental agreement. There are probably quite a few anomalies of that sort kicking around.

Tim

Kilkis
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Re: Withdrawal agreement and residence

Postby Kilkis » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:07 pm

I saw someone turned away at Chania police station because they couldn't provide an acceptable proof of address. They lived in a house owned by a friend, effectively house sitting and not paying any rent. Obviously there was no rental agreement and a letter from the owner was not accepted. They had no utility bills in their name and couldn't provide any other proof of address. Since you are claiming to be resident the authorities are entitled to ask for proof of where you are resident and there is a limit to what they will accept. I don't think that "This bloke lets me sleep in his spare bedroom" is classed as acceptable proof in any jurisdiction. I would be surprised if someone got a blue EU residence certificate without providing a similar proof of address?

Warwick

Tim
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Re: Withdrawal agreement and residence

Postby Tim » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:25 pm

I suppose if you obtained your blue, or beige, permit, it only reflected your circumstances at that point in time. I don't think there was any requirement to hand it in, if and when your personal circumstances changed. Although there probably should have been.

Tim

Jeffstclair
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Re: Withdrawal agreement and residence

Postby Jeffstclair » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:58 pm

Yeah , years ago when I got my first beige permit ...the local police in Sitia didn't really see why I wanted one , and so didn't really know what I needed to provide to get it.. She said "why do you want this ?...we are all Europeans now "...

Kilkis
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Re: Withdrawal agreement and residence

Postby Kilkis » Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:12 pm

As long as you met the requirements of one of the three categories for issuing of a beige certificate you were still entitled to reside in Greece, even if the category changed, e.g. working and then retiring to become self sufficient or being a student and then getting a job. You would only need to rescind the certificate and the right to reside if you no longer met any of the requirements. Once you achieve permanent residence then it doesn't matter what you do.

I obtained my first permit in 2005 before the new Directive and hence the new beige and blue certificates came into force. The officer whose specific job was to issue permits had to fax Athens and ask them what the requirements were. Also the requirements changed every time I went to the police station. A lot more paperwork was needed back then.

Warwick

RobiS
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Re: Withdrawal agreement and residence

Postby RobiS » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:18 pm

As far as proving residence for a partner or friend living with you or at one of your properties, this is a problem I had with my partner. I'm the homeowner and we live together. We called the aliens office in Athens and they said all we had to do was fill out a form a the KEP. The form is a ΥΠΕΥΘΥΝΗ ΔΗΛΩΣΗ. You simply write down so and so is living permanently with you at so and so an address and have it stamped at the KEP. This should work also if you're living off the books, but will require whoever you're renting from to go down to the KEP.

Kilkis
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Re: Withdrawal agreement and residence

Postby Kilkis » Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:05 pm

RobiS wrote:... You simply write down so and so is living permanently with you at so and so an address and have it stamped at the KEP...


I am not certain but I think the declaration has to be written in Greek; KEP will probably fill in an appropriate wording in Greek for you. I have had to fill in ΥΠΕΥΘΥΝΗ ΔΗΛΩΣΗ many times for a variety of reasons and each time they insisted it was in Greek. I am not sure if it is a condition of Law Ν.1599/1986 that defines all the terms for this form of legal declaration or if it was simply that the people requiring the declaration insisted.

Warwick

RobiS
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Re: Withdrawal agreement and residence

Postby RobiS » Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:31 pm

We filled out all the identifying in English except for the declaration itself, which we filled out in English and had a friend translate into Greek on the same page. The aliens officers said even "terrible Greek" is fine.

Kilkis
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Re: Withdrawal agreement and residence

Postby Kilkis » Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:36 pm

I think is a case of "render unto Caesar...". It is fine to fill in information that is English, such as names etc, in English but it is better to fill in things which are Greek, such as where you live, in Greek. Personally I tend to fill in the English information in English with a Greek transliteration in brackets, e.g. Warwick (Γουορικ). It is the declaration itself that I think needs to be in Greek, although again using both should not be a problem. Google translate doesn't do a bad job of translating from English to Greek especially if you keep the grammatical construction simple. I do then check it carefully myself for correct use of cases and conjugations and if in doubt get a Greek friend to check it.

Warwick

FlatEric
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Re: Withdrawal agreement and residence

Postby FlatEric » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:27 am

Thanks for your responses regarding personal experiences, reflections and opinion. Our own experience of trying to get an appointment for a biometric residence permit involved over 200 calls to the Souda police station with no pick up. Eventually we got an appointment for August. Friends of ours have theirs in October!!
I had a couple of questions rattling around in my mind that were brought into focus by the withdrawal statement in my initial post
Firstly, if resident ex-pats here are ‘entitled’ to post Brexit residence why trigger an administrative nightmare when a straight forward blue permit to biometric exchange would have achieved the same result?
Secondly, having been here since 2014 and witnessed what the population have been put through with regards to austerity and Covid restrictions then why on Earth would you put barriers in the way of people who want to come here and spend their money?
I guess you could argue that a probably small number of people who aren’t entitled to residence could slip through the net. Maybe I’m just being too English
Stay safe everyone.
Stuart

Kilkis
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Re: Withdrawal agreement and residence

Postby Kilkis » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:22 pm

The Withdrawal Agreement is an International treaty which is legally binding on all parties. It lays down a set of rules that defines exactly who is and who isn't entitled to residency. In addition there is an EU Regulation, 1030/2002 and amendment 2017/1954, that determines the format and procedures for biometric residence cards for third country nationals which is also legally binding on all EU member states. The process being followed is a merger of these two legally binding sets of rules, i.e. the right to residency is defined in the Withdrawal Agreement while the procedure for issuing a biometric card is defined in the EU Regulations.

For people with a blue EU residence certificate it is pretty much a straight exchange plus fingerprinting, which is part of the EU regulation. There was no need to prove the right to residency only proof of where I live, which is not unreasonable. For those without a blue EU residence certificate there is a need to prove that they meet the conditions set out in the Withdrawal Agreement to qualify for residency. They are simply following the rules agreed to by all countries.

Warwick

bobscott
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Re: Withdrawal agreement and residence

Postby bobscott » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:52 pm

Warwick says: For people with a blue EU residence certificate it is pretty much a straight exchange plus fingerprinting, which is part of the EU regulation. There was no need to prove the right to residency only proof of where I live, which is not unreasonable. For those without a blue EU residence certificate there is a need to prove that they meet the conditions set out in the Withdrawal Agreement to qualify for residency. They are simply following the rules agreed to by all countries.

Not quite so. My blue permit is dated from 2012 and I am told by the police in Chania thatI need to prove that I have not lived out of Greece for more than 5 years in the interval between 2012 and 2021. To do that I am being offered a choice of proof ranging from airline tickets (!), utility bills etc to annual E1 tax declarations. In all cases, I can't see how any of them proves that I, personally, have not lived out of Greece. In reality I have lived nowhere else, and have plenty of people who can vouch for that. I can even say I have played the organ for Sunday Mass for the Catholics in Chania on most Sundays over the last 23 years, but that isn't acceptable proof! We wait and see. Roll on our appointment towards the end of May.
Yesterday today was tomorrow. Don't dilly dally!


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