The system isn’t working

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Rick
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Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:50 pm

The system isn’t working

Postby Rick » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:08 am

The Guardian reports:
“In a country where the inoculation drive is linked to ownership of a social security number, many have slipped through the net.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... covid-jabs

Kilkis
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Re: The system isn’t working

Postby Kilkis » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:47 am

I have a theory for which I have no hard evidence but some indirect evidence. The whole AMKA system was produced by a private software company under contract from the Greek government for a fixed price and in accordance with a specification agreed between the government and the company. Having decided to use the AMKA system to roll out vaccination, just like they would administer any other prescription, I am not sure that the government is capable of modifying the system to take account of people without an AMKA number. I suspect the Emvolio web site simply acts as a gateway to the AMKA system where all the real record keeping is being done.

My indirect evidence? I know that there are medications that are not included in the AMKA system, so you cannot get a prescription for those medications, even though they were available under prescription before the new system was brought in. They were excluded accidentally but the government is not able to include them and they don't have/are not prepared to allocate funds to the software company to modify the system. I wonder if the same is true for the vaccination roll out. If the software company retained ownership of the IP of the software and the source code only they can make modifications and they can pretty much as what they like for doing so. Resolving this technical issue may be what is causing the delay rather than any political intent.

Warwick

Rick
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Re: The system isn’t working

Postby Rick » Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:57 pm

You’ve presented an interesting and articulate plausible explanation for this debacle Warwick, but as you say, you can’t produce any hard evidence.

I do find it difficult to comprehend though, that a government would allow itself to be controlled by an outsourced IT organisation in connection with a global pandemic. Surely, any such government would be totally incompetent if it wasn’t in a position to control the roll out of a critical vaccination to EVERYONE ?

In the meantime, individuals may need to evaluate the need to self isolate and shield, until they receive the vaccination, and possibly weigh up the risk / benefit of returning to the U.K. for an immediate vaccination if they have a second residence there.

Kilkis
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Re: The system isn’t working

Postby Kilkis » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:48 pm

Rick wrote:... Surely, any such government would be totally incompetent if it wasn’t in a position to control the roll out of a critical vaccination to EVERYONE ?...


And you find the Greek government being incompetent somehow surprising?

I agree with you that it is important that everyone gets vaccinated BUT in the grand scheme of things the number of foreigners who haven't managed to get vaccinated is minuscule compared to the number of people who already qualify and haven't been vaccinated yet. I am not sure of the latest figures but around 15 April only about 15 % of the population had received at least one dose. The majority of the foreigners I know have also had one dose already. The number of foreigners that qualify on age but haven't received it because of some administrative problem is tiny. While the delay is obviously important to them individually, in terms of the vaccination programme it has no significance at all. As long as they find a solution in the next few months it will not impact overall protection. From the government's point of view, people not turning up for vaccination appointments because of adverse publicity is a much bigger problem than foreigner vaccination issues.

Warwick

Rick
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Re: The system isn’t working

Postby Rick » Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:21 am

Rebecca Lieb, the American author and strategic advisor (mentioned in the Guardian article linked to this thread), has just tweeted:

Rebecca Lieb (@lieblink) Tweeted:
.@StateDept declares #Greece a no-go zone - too many #COVID cases. If Greece would vax its legal foreign residents who don't have AMKA things might be different @Pierrakakis @PrimeministerGR @MinDigitalGr
https://t.co/7ET0LqYmlp

Kilkis
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Re: The system isn’t working

Postby Kilkis » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:08 am

He is simply doing what any foreign office minister would do, i.e. putting pressure on a foreign government against which some of his citizens are lodging complaints. It is certainly true that the Greek government are screwing this up. It is certainly true that they need to sort it out. It is also true, however, that if every single person who hasn't got an AMKA number were to be vaccinated tomorrow it would have absolutely negligible effect on the rate of spread of the virus. From the point of view of those people it is obviously a major issue and I completely sympathise with them. From the point of view of the Greek government it is a very minor hitch that they will eventually get round to fixing.

The mathematics is simple. As of 21 April Greece has administered at least one vaccine dose to only 18 % of its population so 82 % remain to be vaccinated. That is the top problem facing the Greek government, i.e. speeding up the vaccination programme. That is constrained by vaccine supplies so isn't completely in their control. Foreign nationals make up a small percentage of the population and the majority of those have AMKA numbers so concentrating on the very small percentage that haven't will not significantly speed up the vaccine roll out.

Warwick

johnr
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Re: The system isn’t working

Postby johnr » Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:44 pm

Warwick, I'm sure you are correct in your assumptions, however as a non AMKA resident I personally are not asking that we are vaccinated now per sae. All I'm asking for is a number that can be put into the system so that when it's 'our turn' we will be vaccinated. This due to the circumstances may not be for several weeks, but at least we would know as at this time we haven't a clue if or when.

Kilkis
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Re: The system isn’t working

Postby Kilkis » Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:50 pm

They are not assumptions, John, they are from published statistics. Approximately 7.1 % of the total population in Greece are foreign born. As far as I am aware all (most?) of them could get an AMKA number up to 2019/20 when the new ND government changed the law. The ones who haven't got an AMKA number are those that arrived after 2019, those that arrived before 2019 but didn't get an AMKA when they could or those that don't really have legal status here. Anybody who arrived before 2016 and established their legal status can get a normal AMKA number now. That leaves a relatively small cohort in that 7.1 % who are in the problem category plus a small number of people who have some sort of error in their records.

I am not in any way criticising those people, John. I completely agree with you that they should be given access to vaccination as soon as they are in a qualifying risk/age group like everybody else. I know a few people who are affected. One English couple have never claimed any residency rights and are effectively long term tourists stuck here because of COVID. One couple are Irish nationals who own a house here and a house in Ireland. As EU citizens they are free to come and go as they please. They spend part of the year here and part in Ireland so they have a beige residency certificate which is the appropriate one for them to hold. They all need vaccinating and are in an already released age group but cannot get an appointment which is simply wrong. I agree that it is the government's fault and the government should sort out the problem.

I am not criticising articles that highlight the problem like the one in the Guardian, they perform a useful function. My only criticism is directed at people, like Rebecca Lieb, who claim sorting out the AMKA number problem is going to have some sort of massive effect on the roll out of the vaccine. It isn't. Obviously it will have a massive effect for those people but viewed in the light of the overall programme it won't make a significant difference.

Warwick

johnr
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Re: The system isn’t working

Postby johnr » Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:19 pm

I misspoke Warwick, wrong noun!

I'm glad that you appreciate the "massive' effect that it will have on the relatively small group (Emvilio site is showing 13,000 applications at two days ago). Bottom line for the likes of us, when life slowly starts to get back to normality WEF 4th May we will not risk it ie limited socialising. So a case of hunker down until God knows when or a trip to the UK. We have looked at the logistics and legalities and it's doable over approx three weeks, (WEF end of April) but of course costly.
In the mean time........

BST
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Re: The system isn’t working

Postby BST » Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:30 pm

Rick wrote:Rebecca Lieb, the American author and strategic advisor (mentioned in the Guardian article linked to this thread), has just tweeted:

Rebecca Lieb (@lieblink) Tweeted:
.@StateDept declares #Greece a no-go zone - too many #COVID cases. If Greece would vax its legal foreign residents who don't have AMKA things might be different @Pierrakakis @PrimeministerGR @MinDigitalGr
https://t.co/7ET0LqYmlp


I'd deport her back to the US :lol:

Rick
Posts: 155
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:50 pm

Re: The system isn’t working

Postby Rick » Fri Apr 23, 2021 3:50 pm

Rebecca Lieb said...

"Because of my activism and big mouth, my husband and I got a call offering us temporary AMKA numbers and vaccines. As we were in the eligible age group we accepted, with the proviso that this privilege would not silence me.”
Bravo Rebecca!!

Personally, I'm making a nuisance of myself with the office of Dora Bakoyannis- Chania (Minister of foreign affairs - Greece).
Perhaps I'll get a phone call with a temporary AMKA number to silence me, and make me go away? it doesn't make it right though.

What makes me cross, is Greece's campaign to actively encourage digital nomads to relocate to Greece, promote "golden visa's" by property ownership and expatriate retirement by tax incentives. But all these people go to the back of the queue in a crisis.

I understand your dispassionate extrapolation of numbers Warwick - I get it, but it doesn't make it right.
After this pandemic, Greece, along with other countries, will be judged by their incompetent governments!

Saddler
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Re: The system isn’t working

Postby Saddler » Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:13 pm

Of course you are absolutely right Rick, but some people will use all sorts of numbers and statistics to defend the indefensible incompetence of the EU Commission and a vast majority of its Governments.

Houmeri91
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Location: Perama

Re: The system isn’t working

Postby Houmeri91 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:46 am

Well fact was that Guardian article was out of date before it was written as I and the good lady had Temporary AMKA numbers before it was released, which annoyed me when I read it . Made us sound like a bunch of 'whinging poms' as the good people of Australia would say . The only thing holding us up at the time was the Greek parliament passing the legislation to allow us to get access to free jabs and lateral flow tests . That was passed on the Thursday went to KEP on the Monday job done appointment booked for the Mrs who met the criteria age wise and booked myself appointment yesterday with KEP now dropped age criteria again .
Having worked for the UK Civil Service in a past life have to say the UK can hardly point a finger on delivery of good IT projects on time , on budget etc . Personally OK there have been frustrations we all know Greek Beaureacracy is onerous to say the least but you only have to look at the Windrush Scandal ( depriving people of liberty , basic rights and deporting some for some clerical mix ups ) or the Post Office Horizon system computer scandal ( and the constant back side covering " nothing to see here move along " lets just ruin peoples lives ) let he who is without sin cast the first stone as the good book says !

Rick
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Re: The system isn’t working

Postby Rick » Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:53 am

Houmeri91 wrote:Well fact was that Guardian article was out of date before it was written!


Rebecca Lieb said.....
The legislation for granting a temporary AMKA didn’t pass without a significant and consistent amount of pressure. Since December, I've been waging a daily campaign to reach Greek politicians and media with the message, “If we’re not safe, Greeks aren’t safe.”

https://www.democratsabroad.org/gr_news?page=2


Update on progress
https://www.democratsabroad.org/1301/am ... ber_update

Kilkis
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Location: Near Chania

Re: The system isn’t working

Postby Kilkis » Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:53 am

It is reported today that 30 % of Greeks who have been offered a vaccination appointment have not come forward. I have done some more digging and I estimate that the people who have not been able to get an appointment because of problems with the system are less than 0.2 % of the population. People can draw their own conclusions as to what is really putting the safety of the wider Greek population at risk.

I repeat that the AMKA problem is caused by the Greek government and the Greek government should put it right, which in Houmeri91's experience they are doing. They should put it right because it is morally wrong to deny people access to the vaccine, whatever their nationality, because the government is too incompetent to make the system work not because they represent a systemic risk to the rest of the population. They don't.

Warwick


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