Veterinarian in the Kissamos/Kastelli area?

For discussion, news, comments, questions and information about Crete & Greece.
Kathleen
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Location: North East UK/ex Rethymnon

Postby Kathleen » Tue Jul 07, 2009 5:45 pm

An interesting debate, though I have to say I support neutering any creature which is not required for breeding purposes. (watch out Guys!!) The old saying is you have to be cruel to be kind.

I do not see how anyone can argue that it is fair to condemn an animal to a life in the wild where they run the risk of contracting lethal infections which would be untreated, being run over or succumbing to poison, when their birth could have been avoided.

Some Greeks still support the traditional idea that we as humans have no right to decide for an animal if it is to live or die despite its condition and do not agree with neutering. Thankfully attitudes are now slowly beginning to change

The hardest part of being in Crete as far as I am concerned is keeping my sentiments in check and resisting the temptation to adopt any of the many stray dogs. The loss of my three long owned dogs who died in old age is sufficent deterrant for me. The heartache of losing a dear friend and faithful companion makes it not really worthwhile.

Kathleen

Retired in Crete

Re: "sycophantic fool" syndrome

Postby Retired in Crete » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:20 pm

The Adjectival LFB wrote: BTW, what's happened to your mate R.I.C.?


Thanks for asking. I have it on good authority that he is alive and well!

John

filippos
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Contact:

Postby filippos » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:51 pm

Bl***y Nora. Hello John.

The Adjectival LFB
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Location: In a cool, dry place.

Postby The Adjectival LFB » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:14 am

Kilkis wrote:Not driven, ALFB but I did object strongly to your first post and so was prompted to reply. You are entitled to your opinions on whether to neuter or not. Given the fact that Greek vets and all the rescue centres, i.e. those who actually KNOW something about the subject and UNDERSTAND the problems, support neutering programmes I thought your accusation that anyone who did have cats neutered was "playing God" and even worse "doing it to make themselves feel better" deserved a response. Frankly I think they are puerile and crass.

Warwick



I'll Quote what I actually posted regarding my "accusation"

"Yes, but I personally don't think that human beings are in a position to play "God".
I'm in favour of helping an animal out, but not in interfering in it's life to make myself feel better - certainly not if it endangers the animal's life."

I can honestly say that when I typed that it was not intended to accuse anyone of anything, In fact in an earlier post to I actually said "Kyrstyn, I don't want to be judgmental".

I really don't mind if people want to flame and attack me here, in fact if they find it therapeutic then I welcome it. Unfortunately, if it's not accompanied by a modicum of style and panache, the downside is it's just another nail in the coffin of debate.


Regards,LFB.
Lowell, Frank and Townes - all gone now.

The Adjectival LFB
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:49 pm
Location: In a cool, dry place.

Postby The Adjectival LFB » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:51 am

paulh wrote: (from another thread)
If having cats spayed is "playing god" I just wonder how far that goes. Feeding any stray or wild animal is "playing god" too surely, as would be rescuing a plastic bag full of puppies thrown over your wall. Would it be better to leave it alone to die and rot?

Hey lets not draw demarcation lines here.....you come across a road accident then better just drive carefully around it because to do otherwise could be construed as playing god

If you are not going to follow the concept 100% then you draw lines at a certain point. Fine, your lines are in a certain place but there is nothing to say that others cannot make their lines at other places and you should accept that....or do you want to play god and insist that others should follow your concepts of where the line lies



It's quite simple. It's wrong to take a life, it's right to save one.



Regards,LFB.
Lowell, Frank and Townes - all gone now.

andheath
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 12:46 am
Location: Sitia - Stay Away - Go West

Postby andheath » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:31 pm

To the ALFB, well done for getting back on thread. In my first, and these days rare post, I suggested you should not bring God into it. You don't agree with the sterilization of a wild cat and that is fine. Your opinion and you are entitled to it. The fact that you are wrong has nothing to do with it, all the facts are out there, you can read them and you are free to choose to maintain your original opinion, why not, good for you.

The problem is the God bit. Just because somebody has a different view why accuse them of playing God? Imagine how far that could go and how many subjects we could cover. It is a bit like when you get into a conversation with a complete W****r. I have found that if you tell them you think they are a complete W****r it often does not help the debate.

ALFB, you are a good guy, I like your posts, often witty and you have a distinct air of mystery. In my humble opinion we should just drop the God bit. As an aside, I take it you have never used any form of birth control and are parent to a huge number of children. Unfortunately cats don't get to make a choice.

Finally I am thinking we could do the God bit elsewhere, maybe we could start a new thread because I really do have a lot of questions for that guy but not about cats.

p.s. I too wondered where RIC was, not a mate really, more a kindred spirit. Comforting to know he is still out there.
This Cretan Adventure thing is way beyond a joke.

Retired in Crete

Postby Retired in Crete » Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:24 pm

As a “Lurker”, I give you a few random thoughts (or my two cents worth)

andheath wrote:I have to agree with Lynn, there are too many stray dogs and cats on this island and you need to consider the quality of life enjoyed by some of these animals.


I feel exactly the same about the human population of the UK. According to government statistics some 20% live below the poverty line so perhaps we should start with a sterilisation programme for them. After all they don’t have much quality of life do they?

Kilkis wrote:To spay and let them live an otherwise normal life is a better option in my philosophy.


I do wonder if the cats and dogs have the same philosophy?

Kilkis wrote: Given the fact that Greek vets and all the rescue centres, i.e. those who actually KNOW something about the subject and UNDERSTAND the problems, support neutering programmes


Where is the scientific evidence that the “experts” are correct? So called experts have been getting things wrong since the beginning of time.

Kathleen wrote: I have to say I support neutering any creature which is not required for breeding purposes.


To quote Warwick’s words, this is “puerile and crass”. So no birds in the sky other than racing pigeons, No more dolphins, no polar bears etc?

Kathleen wrote:The old saying is you have to be cruel to be kind.


Exactly! See my first comment!

Kathleen wrote:I do not see how anyone can argue that it is fair to condemn an animal to a life in the wild where they run the risk of contracting lethal infections which would be untreated, being run over or succumbing to poison,


I had to read this one twice! You have obviously forgotten that all animals used to live in the wild before man intervened and condemned them to be pets.

Kathleen wrote:Some Greeks still support the traditional idea that we as humans have no right to decide for an animal if it is to live or die despite its condition


We humans do not yet have this right to decide when we should die, so what gave you the right to decide for animals?
……………………………………………………………………………………….

Andheath recently told the story of Arris, a happy Sitea street dog. Would he/she have been happier if bits had been removed and he was confined to a house which decided when and where he should go? Somehow I doubt it because freedom is the greatest gift of all.

A final thought. You all say that there are too many stray cats and dogs on Crete. Has it occurred to you that if you stopped saving & rescuing them, which only adds to the numbers, then natural selection and the survival of the fittest would prevail and perhaps the numbers would reduce? Nature has its own way of regulating numbers which has operated for thousands of years without human intervention.

John

Saravista
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Location: Bristol & Crete

Postby Saravista » Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:12 pm

John, sweetie,

That post has at last really persuaded me to forgive you for hijacking my name all that time ago. Well said.

Sara.
xxx

andheath
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 12:46 am
Location: Sitia - Stay Away - Go West

Postby andheath » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:01 pm

RIC wrote:
I feel exactly the same about the human population of the UK. According to government statistics some 20% live below the poverty line so perhaps we should start with a sterilisation programme for them. After all they don’t have much quality of life do they?


My dear friend, you have posted some classics in your time, unfortunately this is one of the biggest loads of b*****ks you have ever composed.

There is no poverty line in the UK. If you want real poverty look at bit further afield. To try and compare poor people in the UK with stray cats in Crete is just bonkers.

Stray cats get raped and starve to death. If you want to start a campaign for sterilization why not start with the sick bastards that hang dogs from trees.

By the way, it is a fact that people who are cruel to animals are often the same people who beat women and children. It is only the tip of a societies iceberg.
This Cretan Adventure thing is way beyond a joke.

The Adjectival LFB
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:49 pm
Location: In a cool, dry place.

Postby The Adjectival LFB » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:33 pm

andheath wrote:
My dear friend, you have posted some classics in your time, unfortunately this is one of the biggest loads of b*****ks you have ever composed.

There is no poverty line in the UK. If you want real poverty look at bit further afield. To try and compare poor people in the UK with stray cats in Crete is just bonkers.

Stray cats get raped and starve to death. If you want to start a campaign for sterilization why not start with the sick bastards that hang dogs from trees.

By the way, it is a fact that people who are cruel to animals are often the same people who beat women and children. It is only the tip of a societies iceberg.



Here you go - more evidence that this Island doesn't take many prisoners.



Regards, LFB.
Lowell, Frank and Townes - all gone now.

andheath
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 12:46 am
Location: Sitia - Stay Away - Go West

Postby andheath » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:38 pm

But I can think of one or two people who would, in any other civilized country, be in jail.
This Cretan Adventure thing is way beyond a joke.

Retired in Crete

Postby Retired in Crete » Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:12 pm

andheath wrote:My dear friend, you have posted some classics in your time, unfortunately this is one of the biggest loads of b*****ks you have ever composed.

There is no poverty line in the UK. If you want real poverty look at bit further afield. To try and compare poor people in the UK with stray cats in Crete is just bonkers.


When I drafted my post out, before cutting & pasting it here, the title line was "Random thoughts - some flippant some serious". I only changed it when I added the "As a Lurker" bit because the title was too long. I tell you this because you have chosen to attack the only flippant comment in the whole post! It was put in to try and illustrate that no one can or should judge anothers quality of life.

You make no mention of Arris. Would he/she have been happier if bits had been removed and he was confined to a house?


andheath wrote:If you want to start a campaign for sterilization why not start with the sick bastards that hang dogs from trees.


This "sick bastard" was exercising the right of humans, as advocated by Kathleen, "to decide for an animal if it is to live or die (despite its condition)". I have already said that no one should have that right.

Should we hang Kathleen?

John

Clio
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Postby Clio » Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:20 pm

Stray cats get raped

this poor cat will be raped twice a year whether it wants more kittens or not

Raped? Raped? Sorry, but who’s “bonkers” here? And what next for the animal welfare group: rape crisis centres for feral moggies adjoining the (extant) "cat cafes"? Support groups for the feral cat and every other wild creature from aardvarrk to zebra which doesn’t, as far as I know, go in for consensual intercourse with flowers, chocs and foreplay?

Do you seriously hope to win over fence-sitters like me with that kind of rabid sentimentality, anthropomorphism ad absurdum?

andheath
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 12:46 am
Location: Sitia - Stay Away - Go West

Postby andheath » Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:50 pm

OK Clio I apologise for the sensationalism on my part. If we go back to the original thread, it was about the sterilization of a feral cat so as to reduce the problem of strays. My point was that the cat will, in normal circumstances have two litters of kittens every year for as long as it lives. The cat will have no choice about this.

If the cat is sterilized it will probably live longer and be healthier. Facts broadcast by many animal authorities, not my opinion. The initial response to the post was that the sterilization of a feral cat was "playing God" which I don't understand and which I think is provocative and unhelpful.

I am sorry if my choice of language offends but I believe we make choices to benefit our own health and we should do the same for companion animals. Please do not confuse wild animals with the animals that result from more than 2000 years of mankind's breading for a purpose.
This Cretan Adventure thing is way beyond a joke.

Retired in Crete

Postby Retired in Crete » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:29 am

Cats have frequent litters of kittens to ensure that some survive. In nature few will survive to maturity. The "runt" of the litter will not usually survive more than a few days, others will die by accident or to predators and the female will frequently abandon the whole litter if there is not adequate food available.

It is when humans interfere with nature by saving the poor little kittens, that nature had expected to die, that the numbers of cats increase to problem levels.

I have never been able to understand why humans will happily surgically abort a healthy human foetus but get upset when someone drowns a day old litter of unwanted kittens! Our morality seem questionable to say the least.

John


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