Veterinarian in the Kissamos/Kastelli area?

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pinch
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Location: Souda

Postby pinch » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:45 pm

It just came to me, Little feat

Kyrstyn
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Postby Kyrstyn » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:12 pm

The Adjectival LFB wrote:
lshall05 wrote:LFB have you seen how many stray (feral and house that have been abandoned) cats and dogs there are in Crete?


Yes, but I personally don't think that human beings are in a position to play "God".
I'm in favour of helping an animal out, but not in interfering in it's life to make myself feel better - certainly not if it endangers the animal's life.


Regards, LFB.


LFB, I'm going to paste the text from an email I sent to a friend of mine who feels the same as you do. In addition to this text, I would only point out to you that humans interfere in the lives of animals all the time. Unless you are vegan, or have never made the tough decision to put down an animal when it was very ill but not quite dead, then you too are culpable of the killing of innocent animals...of playing "God". Here is the email. I will refrain from further discussion after this if you don't mind, because I've noticed that most of the content on this board is of a helpful, practical nature and I don't want to dirty it up with politics. If you would like to ask me a question or comment about any of my thoughts, I would welcome a PM. BTW, this is a feral cat who comes to my porch with two members of her previous litter of kittens to beg for food each day. One of the kittens is clearly starving, I guess she isn't one of the stronger ones. I would never have this done with a house cat, because no house cat of mine would ever give birth; there are too many homeless animals who need homes already:

"It was a choice between allowing her to go ahead and give birth, to however many kittens she may have had, 1/2 of whom would most likely starve or be killed by other animals in the neighborhood. The other half would have lived, and gone on to have more babies of their own, 1/2 of whom would starve, etc. Or, as is common practice here, one of the Greek residents might have taken the entire litter, put them in a sack, and drown them. I had to choose between what I felt was the lesser of two evils.

The vet who did this is very reputable, and this is now common practice, as ugly as it may be. This was Pip's second litter since March. The other two who come to feed, and whom I'm going to have spayed in the next few weeks, are her kittens. It is an endless cycle, and I did what I thought was best. I realize that you may not agree, and I'm terribly sorry to know how much it upsets you."

dp
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Postby dp » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:26 pm

Does the LFB live here in Crete. If he/she does, then you will be aware of the abject suffering of both feral and so-called domestic cats here. I have had plenty of experience of this in my time here so far. In fact, Greek friends of mine are horrified at the notion of neutering animals as they feel it is "playing God" and "interfering with nature". What a lot of nonsense. Is it right and moral to allow an endless cycle of cats having kittens, only for them to starve or to be despatched because they are in the way. My neighbours will tolerate a few cats about the place and throw them scraps because they keep the rats away, but would no sooner neuter them than fly to the moon. But they have no compunction about drowning the resultant kittens. If this is not playing God then what is?
I really like my Greek neighbours who are very kind and helpful, but they have one almighty blind spot about animal welfare.

andheath
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Location: Sitia - Stay Away - Go West

Postby andheath » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:34 pm

It is not a case of playing God. If there is a God he certainly did not have Crete in mind when he decided to put dogs and cats on this earth. So let's not bring God into it.

I have to agree with Lynn, there are too many stray dogs and cats on this island and you need to consider the quality of life enjoyed by some of these animals. Many areas have active programmes to spay and neuter stray animals, after recovery the animal is returned to it's environment. The animal will be more healthy, live longer and have less competition for food. If the population is controlled in this way outbreaks of disease are less likely, the local population will be less inclined to use indiscriminate poisoning or even worse methods to get rid of the problem and just as importantly, the Crete tourism industry is going to get less of a lambasting globally because let's be honest, many people is the civilized world are disgusted by the Greek attitude to companion animals and actively try to deter people from visiting Greece as a method of protest. You can see countless numbers of web sites deploring animal welfare in Greece.

In my opinion Krystyn is to be applauded for trying to sterilize a stray cat. It is not cheap, anything between 80 - 140 Euros. Without bringing God back into the thread, we humans generally decide how often to give birth, this poor cat will be raped twice a year whether it wants more kittens or not. Krystyn, good for you, I am positive the cat will be grateful.

As far as I am aware, depending how far into her term she is, the cat can still be sterilized and the pregnancy terminated at the same time. In normal health this should not endanger the animal in any way given a safe place to recuperate. Good luck.
This Cretan Adventure thing is way beyond a joke.

Kyrstyn
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Postby Kyrstyn » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:50 pm

Just so everyone knows, "Pip" came through with flying colors (Pip is the name my sister gave to the kitty in question when she came over to help me get settled in. The other two are Huck and Elf). I released her, gave her food and water (which she scarfed down) and then she was up, over the wall, and away as if nothing had happened.

This vet is truly talented, compassionate and reasonable. I wish I were going to live here for longer than six months, because I'd love to have him be the permanent vet for my own two cats.

Kilkis
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Postby Kilkis » Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:36 am

Start with a single fertile female. After ten years you are likely to have in the region of 1,000 cats. Work it out for yourself ALFB.

Warwick

The Adjectival LFB
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Postby The Adjectival LFB » Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:01 pm

Kilkis wrote:Start with a single fertile female. After ten years you are likely to have in the region of 1,000 cats. Work it out for yourself ALFB.

Warwick



"Oh no!! No No No No!!!!! Oh no no no!!!!"

The life expectancy of a feral feline around here seems to be about three and a half to four years, maximum. My observations over the last few years would suggest your estimation of 1,000 is somewhat adrift, however I must admit that I have not written a paper on it.

I would not normally dream of questioning you on stats, but in this case... oh well, maybe you were just sucked into the emotional vortex this thread seems to have developed... or maybe you were just tired and emotional!


Regards,LFB.
Lowell, Frank and Townes - all gone now.

Jean
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Contact:

Postby Jean » Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:11 pm

My observations over the last few years would suggest your estimation of 1,000 is somewhat adrift


1000 or 100, Warwick's argument is no less valid even if his "stats" are off.

SatCure
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Location: Apokoronas

Postby SatCure » Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:15 pm

Typical litter comprises 4 kittens. Assuming two are female and breed every 6 months then:
After 6 months you have 4 females.
After a year you have 8.
After 18 months you have 16.
After 2 years you have 32.
After 3 years you have 128.
After 4 years you have 512.
After 5 years you have 2048.
After 6 years you have 8192.
After 7 years you have 32,768.
After 8 years you have 131,072.
After 9 years you have 542,299.
After 10 years you have 2,097,152.
Plus an equal number of males.

(This does not take into account the mortality rate or the age at which they become fertile. The real total is probably under a million)

So, it seems to me that Warwick's calculation was out by a large factor.
And the Cretans have it right; you need to go round collecting cats in a bag, otherwise you'll be "up to your shirt in tribbles". :wink:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trouble_With_Tribbles

Kilkis
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Postby Kilkis » Sun Jul 05, 2009 5:02 pm

I had factored in early mortality. Cats typically come into season every six months. They ALWAYS mate! Typical litter is 4 or more. Typically half are female. As Martin points out that leads to a much higher rate of expansion. I assumed that early mortality from various causes would reduce that figure so that the population doubled every year. That's where the 1000 figure came from.

OK so it's less than 1000. At what number do you think the poison meat goes down? I presume grabbing them as newly born and putting them in a sack in a waste bin isn't playing God in your world? I guess waiting until there are twenty or thirty and then putting down poison meat killing all the local cats and any other animal passing by is not playing God in your world? That's the reality of life in Greece. To spay and let them live an otherwise normal life is a better option in my philosophy.

We were adopted by a mother cat and its three kittens. We paid to have them all neutered. We provide shelter, food, water, tick and flea treatment, worm them regularly and take them to the vet if anything happens to them. Otherwise they live the life of feral cats. They wander wherever they want and chase all their natural prey. That freedom led to one of them being run over and killed last week but at least his life was good. If they had been merrily mating for the last two years they would all have been poisoned by now.

Warwick

andheath
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Postby andheath » Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:27 pm

Well said Warwick. Top man.
This Cretan Adventure thing is way beyond a joke.

The Adjectival LFB
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Location: In a cool, dry place.

"sycophantic fool" syndrome

Postby The Adjectival LFB » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:26 am

andheath wrote:Well said Warwick. Top man.



andheath, are you related to Ken1? your post is scarily similar to many of his. On second thoughts I'm sure you're not. I'll just put it down to cabin fever. BTW, what's happened to your mate R.I.C.?
Lowell, Frank and Townes - all gone now.

The Adjectival LFB
Posts: 147
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:49 pm
Location: In a cool, dry place.

Postby The Adjectival LFB » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:43 am

Kilkis wrote:I had factored in early mortality. Cats typically come into season every six months. They ALWAYS mate! Typical litter is 4 or more. Typically half are female. As Martin points out that leads to a much higher rate of expansion. I assumed that early mortality from various causes would reduce that figure so that the population doubled every year. That's where the 1000 figure came from.

OK so it's less than 1000. At what number do you think the poison meat goes down? I presume grabbing them as newly born and putting them in a sack in a waste bin isn't playing God in your world? I guess waiting until there are twenty or thirty and then putting down poison meat killing all the local cats and any other animal passing by is not playing God in your world? That's the reality of life in Greece. To spay and let them live an otherwise normal life is a better option in my philosophy.

We were adopted by a mother cat and its three kittens. We paid to have them all neutered. We provide shelter, food, water, tick and flea treatment, worm them regularly and take them to the vet if anything happens to them. Otherwise they live the life of feral cats. They wander wherever they want and chase all their natural prey. That freedom led to one of them being run over and killed last week but at least his life was good. If they had been merrily mating for the last two years they would all have been poisoned by now.

Warwick




I can't help but remember back to your pre "countless cups of coffee" posts at Geraldoworld and prior to your move to Crete - you seem to be a lot more "driven" now. As a not particularly related aside I don't think this Island takes many prisoners.

para.1.
That's interesting, around here litters seem to be two or three - never more. I can honestly say I have never identified a trend in the tom/queen split. Life is obviously different nearer sea level. I think an awful lot of feral cats die before 4 years of age, even when removing poisoning from the equation.

para.2.
Redtop front page, you should work for Murdoch - I've renamed you Kelvin!

Seriously, the poisoned meat goes down in some villages, not in others.
I agree that poisoning is a travesty, but if they poison cats in your neck of the woods how on earth do you think that spaying a handful is going to make any difference, either to the masses or "your" three cats?

para.3.
I am bemused that you would appear to think that a cat would do anything other than it desired - dogs have people, cats have servants.
You say "If they had been merrily mating for the last two years they would all have been poisoned by now" - you mean to say that the poisoners only target copulating cats?

Kelvin/Kilkis/Warwick, I've met the vet in Souda many times. As I don't live here all the time the cats, here, are not house cats. They used to be (not the same ones who are here now), but I think I'm doing them more of a favour by not giving them a false sense of security. Maybe I still give them too much.
If you offer a feral cat a different life and the cat embraces it then that's good. If you impose your philosophy on the feral cat population, then I'm not convinced.



Regards, LFB.
Lowell, Frank and Townes - all gone now.

altohb
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Re: "sycophantic fool" syndrome

Postby altohb » Tue Jul 07, 2009 7:21 am

The Adjectival LFB wrote:
andheath wrote:Well said Warwick. Top man.



andheath, are you related to Ken1? your post is scarily similar to many of his. On second thoughts I'm sure you're not. I'll just put it down to cabin fever. BTW, what's happened to your mate R.I.C.?


Can guarantee that andheath is not Ken1. Andheath is funny!

Kilkis
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Postby Kilkis » Tue Jul 07, 2009 4:32 pm

Not driven, ALFB but I did object strongly to your first post and so was prompted to reply. You are entitled to your opinions on whether to neuter or not. Given the fact that Greek vets and all the rescue centres, i.e. those who actually KNOW something about the subject and UNDERSTAND the problems, support neutering programmes I thought your accusation that anyone who did have cats neutered was "playing God" and even worse "doing it to make themselves feel better" deserved a response. Frankly I think they are puerile and crass.

Warwick


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