Cost of "legalisation"

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Rej
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Cost of "legalisation"

Postby Rej » Thu Nov 24, 2011 8:38 am

We have had our house surveyed by a local engineer to identify any "illegal" structures. Two problems have been pointed out; a tiled pergola and a wooden carport plus shed with a corrugated roof. This did not seem too bad until we were told that the cost of "legalisation" would be €3,000. Before deciding whether or not to pay up it would be interesting to know the experiences of others who may be involved in this process. In other words, is this the sort of amount which we should have expected?

al'Miral
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Postby al'Miral » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:00 am

As a first move I would be interested to know who told you it would be 3000-euro? I would personally be very wary of a figure from the civil engineer. We have had our view of these people soured by two clear rip-off figures given to us in the past by two different people. I had thought that the sum to pay was set by the municipal office when a report and new topo from the civil engineer was presented to them.

filippos
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Postby filippos » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:56 am

It could be that the €3K is the cost of legalisation plus the CE's fees which may be inflated. In any case, and if my memory is correct, I suspect CE fees will be fairly high since they were granted a substantial increase 2-3 years ago.

Have you asked the CE for a breakdown of the cost? If not that's what I'd do then visit the dimos or KEP for confirmation that you've been given an accurate costing. If you're near Xania I've found the KEP office beside the courthouse particularly helpful [and I think they might share the offices with part of the building department. That may have changed 'cos that info is about 7 years old].

P.S. 13:05 I've just been told, by 'Er Indoors, that she's heard that KEP office is no longer open. If true, B*gger!

moved 2 crete
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legalization

Postby moved 2 crete » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:18 pm

we have been quoted 6000 to 7000 euros estimate for a large coservatory a 4 by 3 mtr shed with a corrugated roof a tile pergola and a double carport with an attached small art studio, so may be its a lottery depending where you live , we live out of a town or village, we are going ahead with the process. Not very happy but it has to be done, it seems to be getting a little like spain, when these buildings were done the builder said planning was not required after 12 months after the initial build, but said the law has now changed.
Dave H

filippos
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Re: legalization

Postby filippos » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:37 pm

moved 2 crete wrote:... the builder said planning was not required after 12 months after the initial build, but said the law has now changed.
I think you'll find he's told porkies and he wasn't the only one by a long chalk. There was, about ten years ago, the tiniest hint of a change in the law but it was quickly stamped on.

There are unscrupulous builders and developers everywhere: some of the worst here were ex-patriates, from more than one country, who took advantage of the instinctive trust their countrymen put in those who had the same origins. One Briton got shot [not fatally but seriously injured] for his mis-dealings.

john4d
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Postby john4d » Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:29 am

I have been quoted €2000 by two different Civil Engineers as their fee for the work. The second one explained that he couldn't charge me less than that as this was the 'standard fee' and the tax man would demand he pay tax on that amount. I suppose that the tax man could easily find out how many certificates he had issued as there is a clear audit trail, so it might be true or of course it may not be and we are all getting ripped off.

The 'fines' seem to be based on amongst other things the square meters of the offending structure and the initial cost of construction. They also appear to be 'banded' in €500 bands. If you can scrape into a lower band you can save €500.

Don't forget there is a 20% discount off the fine for prompt payment.

Things in Greece are always changing so who knows what the situation will be in 2 or 3 years time, however this is all a nice little earner for the government, fines plus 35% of each Civil Engineers fee (professional so higher tax payer :wink: ) and it is unlikely to be declared illegal by the EU, though if the Civil Engineering profession were opened up and the dead hand of government removed the fees may be lower.

We must treat the obtaining of the certificate as an expense incurred in the sale of a house like Estate agents fees, legal fees, environmental certificate fees and whatever else governments dream up to make a quick buck.

John
There's no such thing as a bad taste joke

filippos
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Postby filippos » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:46 am

john4d wrote:...... he couldn't charge me less than that as this was the 'standard fee' and the tax man would demand
This is what I was alluding to in my post " .... they were granted a substantial increase 2-3 years ago".

P.S. It might have been as much as 5 years ago. My memory ain't what it was.

Kilkis
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Postby Kilkis » Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:37 am

Perhaps I've gone native but I have a completely different take on this.

I built a free standing, i.e. not attached to the house, wooden carport with a tiled roof several years after the house was built. As far as I am concerned it is not a permanent structure and not, therefore, liable for building permission or a licence fee. If, at any time, the authorities challenge this I will simply remove it. Since their ultimate sanction is to demolish the offending structure I will have effectively carried out this sanction for them. Obviously, if the reason for doing this is to sell the property I would be happy to return the components to the buyer and arrange for it to re-erected after the sale is complete.

Warwick

greekboy
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Postby greekboy » Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:16 pm

By removing the structure Kilkis you would make your property legal. As I understand it any structure that is on your land with a fixed roof is illegal or looking at it another way- any construction albeit a kennel, stone walls, car ports ectera which aren't shown on the plans when planning permission was granted will make it illegal. I think !
Fred

Rej
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Postby Rej » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:03 pm

I understand that the deadline before which a property must be registered for legalisation has been extended to December 30th. Can anyone confirm this?

If it is the case, there seems no point at all in starting the formal process of registration until much nearer the deadline. (Who knows what might change in the next four weeks?)

In any event I am inclined towards Warwick’s view. I am waiting for a second quotation but it seems likely that I will be required to pay a penalty of €5,000 or more (combined fine and fees) because I built two small wooden structures. This is clearly inappropriate and unfair. All I will have to show for this is a piece of paper which is only valid for 30 years (hardly a selling point in 10 or 15 years time) and which could easily become worthless if the law changes again in coming years. I think I will do what our Greek neighbors will surely do - nothing. If in the end the structures need to be removed it can be done in one day.

Kilkis
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Postby Kilkis » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:35 pm

It is important to note that the process does NOT legalise the additions to the property. It simply allows them to continue in an illegal state for 30 years without any action.

Warwick

filippos
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Postby filippos » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:42 pm

As I understand it (and I may be wrong as we sold our property three years ago) you will need a certificate of legality if and when you come to sell. On the assumption that that remains so, how much might the certificate cost then even if the property is declared legal as it stands? What would happen if they then found something you thought legal which the the authorities determined was not?

At the very least any sale could be substantially delayed and at what level might any penalty be set?

Another depressing thought: most taxes imposed by any government tend to remain in place although the rate may vary. In Britain Income Tax was introduced supposedly on a temporary basis.

kaytee
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Postby kaytee » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:54 pm

My husband sentiments are the same as Kilkis - knock it down. We have been told that if a structure is on wooden posts with metal brackets, rather than concrete/brick supports. It does not need planning permission? Unless this has altered too. What does the amnesty entail. If there is an amnesty. Does this mean one doesn't pay..... :roll:

filippos
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Postby filippos » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:31 am

kaytee wrote:..... if a structure is on wooden posts with metal brackets, rather than concrete/brick supports. It does not need planning permission?......
That's a new one on me but I'd be inclined to ask a trustworthy civil engineer, i.e. one without a vested interest in your property.

If the structure has a tiled roof I think it's illegal however it's supported. A little bit of tiled 'porch' over a doorway with no ground level support, but not on the approved plans, is illegal so what chance a structure on the ground?

john4d
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Postby john4d » Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:08 am

Warwick

I don't disagree with your view or proposed inaction, one of my offending structures is also a free standing carport with a tiled roof and fairly easy to take down if necessary, but what are your views on the legal and moral issues revealed by this recent legislation?

Clearly if a house has been built and it is not in accordance with the building permit then an offence has taken place and the authorities are within their rights to take punitive action ie a fine. However if an addition has been made, such as a free standing carport which did not need a permit at the time it was built but under current legislation does, are the authorities justified in judging it by todays standards? The laws of natural justice would say no. A free standing carport is easy to remove but other items may not be. We are then faced with the problem of not being able to sell our house without the certificate. However much we may feel we are in the right, officialdom will take the opposite view and they have the upper hand.

Only this year I was waiting on the dock in Ancona waiting to board a Minoan Line ferrry when an officer came along and asked for my tickets. He looked at my vehicle and said this is the wrong ticket. No I said I queried at the time it was issued and was assured it was the right ticket at a special price. "You must pay more, a lot more" he said. I again protested. "If you don't pay more I will not let you on the ferry" I found this a compelling argument and coughed up an additional €160. I reported this to the travel agent who reported it to Minoan. Minoan's response was "yes there has been a mistake" but I haven't had a refund yet!

When the power is in 'their' hands we are forced to comply even though it is unreasonable

John
There's no such thing as a bad taste joke


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