cost of living

[annabanana]

hello everybody
I know this subject has been chewed over so many times,but we are planning moving to crete maybe next year,we do have house and a bit of land wich is all payed for,so now we will have 16.000 euros a year, we know haw much is electric and water will be, so my question is can we afford live in crete on 16.000,we need a car, we dont need a hair cuts and we make our own wine and beer at home ,we will go out once a month to taverna.What i try to say we will live a "a good life"
please can any one give us some answers,how much is cost simple living.
thank you.
annabanana

[filippos]

This thread might give you some idea. (Bear in mind it's 11 months old)

[kaytee]

We live quite happily on approx 18,000. Our supermarket/petrol/and general sundries receipts for 2012 added up to 11,500. The receipts are not all there! For reason we all know about. We go out a couple of times a month. I try to grow my own veg -particularly in summer. Big items that may break down might cause a problem but will cross that bridge when it appears.Oh and I am one of those dreadful people that smoke . So that is mainly included in the above total.
Hope this is useful.

[peebee]

Our annual expenditure is about €23,000 per annum of which €7000 is rent so that brings it down to the €16,000 mark.
We don't eat out very often, but do maintain a good lifestyle, run a car and a motorcycle.
We also have 8 cats, plus a few `outside cats' to feed and maintain, and do also indulge in the beer and vino, which if you make your own could be a saving.
I do have a detailed breakdown of all our expenses for the last 2 1/2 years, so if you are interested PM me.

[bobscott]

hello everybody
I know this subject has been chewed over so many times,but we are planning moving to crete maybe next year,we do have house and a bit of land wich is all payed for,so now we will have 16.000 euros a year, we know haw much is electric and water will be, so my question is can we afford live in crete on 16.000,we need a car, we dont need a hair cuts and we make our own wine and beer at home ,we will go out once a month to taverna.What i try to say we will live a "a good life"
please can any one give us some answers,how much is cost simple living.
thank you.
annabanana

Given the caveat about a car, etc, the word 'austere' comes to mind. It won't be easy. But that also depends on where you live on the island. The Chania end is probably more expensive than most other areas. Going east might be a better option. Good luck.

[Retired in Crete]

Given the caveat about a car, etc, the word 'austere' comes to mind. It won't be easy.

Austere on 350 Euros a week? I never realised that I apparently live in poverty!

Strange that I am below the breadline, considering I drive a 3 year old car (bought new), live in a house with a swimming pool, have a 6 berth sailboat moored in the local marina, eat out a couple of times a week and have just got back from a couple of months in Thailand.

Poverty never tasted so good!

John

[Kilkis]

It is a simple fact that, especially in the case of older people, what people own doesn't correlate in any major way with their income now or what they spend now. It is simply an indication of what their earning and expenditure rates were in the past. Rate of acquisition of goods should correlate reasonably well with income and expenditure during the earning phase of a person's life. Sadly the tax man doesn't seem to understand simple economic realities, or chooses not to.

Poverty and austerity are relative terms. If you have enough "income" to buy what you need then you are rich. If you don't have enough "income" to purchase what you need then you are poor. Exactly what that amount of money is or the fact that it varies from person to person is irrelevant. "Income" in this sense could be actual income or use of capital.

Warwick

[Retired in Crete]

It is a simple fact that, especially in the case of older people, what people own doesn't correlate in any major way with their income now or what they spend now.

I am sorry Warwick but it does.

A car costs petrol, tax & insurance, and servicing costs, not to mention depreciation.

A boat costs fuel, insurance, marina fees, lift out charges and maintenance costs (to keep it seaworthy and maintain its value).

A house with a pool attracts more property tax than one without.

If these expenses don't correlate with, and come out of, my income now I am doing something wrong!

John

[Kilkis]

... in any major way ...

So, for example John, you have a house with a pool and I have a house without a pool. Does that mean that your income today is bigger than my income today? OK you have to pay a bit more tax than I do but is that really a major expense?

Until a few years ago I drove a 15 year old car with a 1200 cc engine that was virtually worthless. I then gave it away and bought a three year old car with an 1800 cc engine. Had my income gone up? Do I now spend more on the car? The answer is no to both questions. Obviously I had to spend some capital to acquire the new car but that was spending capital that I acquired years ago when I was in a wealth accumulation phase of my life. Depreciation isn't really relevant. Once I have spent the capital I will not see any money actually going out each month because of depreciation. If this car becomes worthless before I die I might need to buy another but that will also be bought out of capital acquired years ago. Fuel costs are about the same. The engine is bigger but more efficient because technology has improved in the last twenty years. Insurance is a bit more but repair costs are less.

I have a friend nearby who has a car, a moped and a boat. I have a car, no moped and no boat. His income is less than mine but the tax man would say it must be more. The only difference is that he chose to spend some of the capital he accumulated when he was working on a boat and I didn't.

I reiterate. Particularly for older people, what you own relates far more to what happened in the past than to what is happening today.

Warwick

[altohb]

... in any major way ...

I reiterate. Particularly for older people, what you own relates far more to what happened in the past than to what is happening today.

Warwick

......which is why the tax on assumed income is so iniquitous!

[Retired in Crete]

So, for example John, you have a house with a pool and I have a house without a pool. Does that mean that your income today is bigger than my income today?

No, but it means my current outgoings are higher than if I didn’t have a pool.

Until a few years ago I drove a 15 year old car with a 1200 cc engine that was virtually worthless. I then gave it away and bought a three year old car with an 1800 cc engine. Had my income gone up? Do I now spend more on the car? The answer is no to both questions. Obviously I had to spend some capital to acquire the new car but that was spending capital that I acquired years ago when I was in a wealth accumulation phase of my life. Depreciation isn't really relevant. Once I have spent the capital I will not see any money actually going out each month because of depreciation. If this car becomes worthless before I die I might need to buy another but that will also be bought out of capital acquired years ago. Fuel costs are about the same. The engine is bigger but more efficient because technology has improved in the last twenty years. Insurance is a bit more but repair costs are less.

But a car is still a continual expense and part of the cost of living

I have a friend nearby who has a car, a moped and a boat. I have a car, no moped and no boat. His income is less than mine but the tax man would say it must be more. The only difference is that he chose to spend some of the capital he accumulated when he was working on a boat and I didn't.

I have no idea what sort of boat your friend has but I do know what my annual costs are. Marina berthing charges alone are 1,320 Euros p.a. Whatever sort of book-keeping you use this is an ongoing expense from my income and not from past capital expenditure.

I reiterate. Particularly for older people, what you own relates far more to what happened in the past than to what is happening today.

Now if you had said “What you have bought in the past, or from your capital, can affect you current cost of living today” I might have agreed with you but your assertion is plainly garbage.

To get back to the original subject, the questioner can have a good life on 16,000 Euros a year and afford a few “toys” as well. Just my opinion (and last word on the subject) though.

John

[Kilkis]

So are you saying that you can afford to buy a house with a pool, a nearly new car and a boat with €350 per week and cover all other living expenses out of that amount?

I suspect not. I suspect that, like me, every major item you own today was bought from money earned before you came to Greece. The value of those items is a reflection of what you earned in the past. It is not a reflection of your income today. There is probably an indirect link in that if you have expensive assets now you must have earned a high income at some point in time and that probably means you have a higher than average pension but there is no direct link.

I suspect that what you are really saying is you can afford the ongoing costs associated with those items out of €350 per week. That I don't doubt.

I know people who live on about €600 per month because that is their sole income, i.e. a UK State Pension. I know people who live on about €1,000 per month and others who live on €2,000 per month because that is their income. The Greek tax authorities would assess the first and the last as having the same income, because the value of their major assets is about the same, and the middle one as having more than both of them, because their major assets have greater value. That is because the Greek tax authorities totally spuriously base their assessment on the people's assets while all those assets were bought with money earned before they ever cam to Greece.

I repeat, assets are not a good guide to income now they merely reflect past income. If you really believe that assets are a good guide to income today then I don't know many people who would agree with you.

Warwick

[Retired in Crete]

I suspect that what you are really saying is you can afford the ongoing costs associated with those items out of €350 per week. That I don't doubt.

Warwick

Oh for heavens sake, I give up!

Please read my second post again. That is what I said!! You obviously didn’t read the last line “If these expenses don't correlate with, and come out of, my income now I am doing something wrong!”

John

[bobscott]

In my earlier post, I assumed 16K to be total income and the statement was made based on my own drawings from the UK. However, and it's a big However - it doesn't take any account at all of the additional cost of bills paid in UK, including credit cards. If you have to do the lot on 16K then I reckon you will be a bit pushed. And I don't have a pool, a boat or a luxury car. And we only eat out once a month!

Edit a few moments later: 5 years ago, you could probably do the lot on about 14K.

[Topdriller]

John (RIC),

Two people living on a total of €16000 per year on Crete is nigh on impossible. It works out at a tad over €300 per week.

Rent a cheap house and you will end up paying one week's income and more likely a week and a half out of every month you live here. If you've bought a house you will spend a similar amount in maintenance.

Heat or cool your rented or bought property and you will spend at least another week's income per month. One ton if wood these days is €150 and in a normal winter you will burn a ton every 6 weeks.

Eat out twice a week and even choosing a local taverna it will cost you a minimum of €20 per meal which works out at €160 per month. Accept that friends & family will come visit and this figure will rise.

Buy a small car and fuel, insurance and the annul tax will cost you a minimum of €400 + €200 + €300 per year.

Rent a phone line and Internet connection and your minimum payment will be €28 per month or €336 per year. Use the OTE free national / international deal + Internet and the cost will be €400 per year.

Buy basics like shampoo, deodorant, tooth paste, washing powder, fabric softener etc each month and this will cost €600 per year.

Use electricity to run you lights, air con, heat your property in the winter and this will cost a minimum of €600 per year.

Run a boat and third party insurance will be €120 per year. Service the boat and you can double that figure. Put fuel in the boat and it will again put the price up.

Tend a small garden and you will need to buy tools, fertiliser, perhaps plants, pay for water to irrigate them - yet further costs.

You will need clothes, shades, and other stuff that wears out within the year.

Own your house and you will have a property tax, as you will if you own a pool.

Chlorine tabs, shock, etc. to service your pool. The cost of water loss due to evaporation, wind etc.

The list is endless - as you well know - and I've only scraped the surface. If you go to Thailand - good on you - but most like to go back to the UK once a year to visit friends and family. Two air fares, rental car, eating out, buying things you can't get in Crete - the list goes on and on.

I have Greek friends who struggle to make ends meet on €25000 a year and they own their house, get wine, raki, veg etc from family.

Why come here at all if you have to struggle to make end's meet?

Jon